Sliding Tackles? Dangerous Shots at Goal, Intentional Aerial Infringements | Live Q&A #WhatUpWednesday Ep. 131

📅 Oct 11 18.00 GMT
➡️ YouTube

The EHL KO16 is over, and I have questions. When is a slide tackle not a slide tackle? When is a shot at goal dangerous? When is an aerial infringement intentional? Bonus: spilling tea from the Hoofdklasse because they have some overflowing pots.

Let's get to some answers together in this week's live stream, because umpiring is fun with #thirdteam friends.

See you there!

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⏱ Chapter Markers:

0:00 Chair Dancing
03:16 Topics!
05:06 1a. RCFvHOL Dangerous play
48:05 1b. WWCvPLZ Sliding Tackle
58:14 1c. WWCvPLZ Sliding interception on sideline
01:12:42 2a. RCFvHOL Dangerous shot at goal
01:19:21 2b. WWCvPLZ Dangerous shot at goal
01:30:12 3a. WATvOGHC Intentional Aerial Infringement
01:39:09 3b. KAMvWWC Intentional aerial infringement inside 23m

Check out when the next #WhatUpWednesday will go live.

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Transcript

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#WhatUpWednesday Ep. 131

[00:00:00] I'm getting older, I feel the weight up on my shoulders.

[00:00:27] I'm strong enough, I will rise above, it's all gonna be okay. If I can be anything, I think I'm gonna be me. I know I gotta be me.

[00:00:45] Else I wanna go. No one else I'd rather be. I think I'm gonna be, I think I'm gonna be me. La, la, la, la, la, la. La, la, la. La, la, la, la, la. I be me. I think I'm gonna be, I think I'm gonna be me. Everything's changing, just trying to navigate. Oh, I keep on believing, I'm gonna find my way. With every day, I'm getting older.

[00:01:14] I feel the weight upon my shoulders. I'm gonna be okay.

[00:01:23] If I can't be anything, I think I'm going to be me.

[00:01:30] I know be me.

[00:01:41] I think I'm gonna be, I think I.

[00:01:53] I think I'm gonna be me, me, me. I know I gotta be me, me, me. There's nowhere else I wanna go. No one be. I think I'm gonna be, I think I'm gonna be me.

[00:02:16] I know

[00:02:20] I gotta be I wanna go? No one else I'd rather be. I think I'm gonna be, I think I'm gonna be me. me.

[00:02:40] That cuts out a little differently than it should. Welcome! What up Wednesday? I'm Keely Dunn of FHumpires, and we are the third team, and I am delighted that you're here, because we've got a bit of a show. It's going to be a thing. The EHL Knockout Round of 16 just wrapped up in Barcelona, and if you were on the Discord servers and a part of Some of the watch parties that we did over the three days.

[00:03:07] You will have, uh, took in some really interesting matches, lots of discussion points, lots of things to talk about, but these are the highlights. These are what we are going to address as we're going through sliding tackles, shrug, uh, dangerous shots at goal and international aerial infringements. Um, and potentially intentional use of the body, but it's, it's a show.

[00:03:32] There's a lot to go through. So I, I don't even know if we'll get to number four. We might spend all our time on the first video on the first topic. That's why I front load it. I front load it. Cause I, I know that sometimes we just really need to get into the good stuff. Let me get my music started so I can, you know, assemble my piece.

[00:03:55] Inside, it's my meditation and all that sort of thing. And why not? Good to see everybody here. Um, Stijn, you're having problems all over the place, so I don't know what's going on. Let me know, everybody else, if the sound is okay. Good to see AJ. And, uh, yeah, thanks, Jonathan. I'm, it's what I do, clear explanations.

[00:04:21] They may take me a long time, but I do make things as clear as I can. And I get the help from all of you folk, because your questions and your feedback helped me to understand how we all perceive things and how the language shapes the way we talk. So very important. Good to see Simon. You, you're not late.

[00:04:43] That's why I have a warmup music is so that everybody can just amble in and grab their drinks and sit down and do their thing. There you go. Did I say international, but I did do a very thorough tech check. So let's see what happens. And this was your match last Sunday. You had all of those things. Okay, well, let's, let's do it then.

[00:05:07] Let's get into it. Sliding tackles. Shrug emoji? This is the marquee play that we're gonna talk about. Don't hear the music. Might be a little too quiet. That's okay. I can hear it. That's the important part. So, this was in, I think, the third match, and this is, uh, race, Russian Club de France, and Holcombe, and the poll is up.

[00:05:38] There are 13 million options, because there are, there are many possibilities on this play. I think. I think, I believe, I know, I think, I believe, I have a stance as to what I believe the correct, the best decision is in this. But I think that the one thing that we have to start off with is that we're at a point with penalty corners, a lot of conversation about the danger of drag flicks and all sorts of…

[00:06:14] Um, of shots and things like that, but this is actually one of the also very dangerous elements of the penalty corner, is that we have traffic going in two ways, and we have players who are trying to establish their space. or move through a space in ways in which they have varying degrees of entitlement.

[00:06:38] And we, in a split second, while we have other things to look at like, did the ball actually go outside the circle? Was it released inside the circle? Uh, did the ball hit the runner above or below the knee? And at what height? And how close were they? And we're looking for All sorts of other things. Somehow we're also supposed to see these collisions that are happening.

[00:07:04] I don't think it's inaccurate to say that these are happening with more regularity in penalty corners because the lowering conversion rate of the straight drag flick has required, uh, teams at the top levels. And I think at all other levels where drag flicks really aren't that, uh, that awesome. To use these deflections a lot more, and deflections that are high up, or how do I better describe this, that are on this, uh, obtuse angle, so quite flat, instead of the deflection coming from wide, which could get players in danger of actually being in a first shot on goal, but if it's in line, those are the deflections that are very powerful and, and high converting, uh, options on penalty corners.

[00:08:00] So coaches, I think, are in a real spot here, and they're trying to figure out, we're trying to figure out with them, and I'm taking, I'm intentionally using collaborative language here, we are trying to figure this out together, as to how we keep players safe, and yet allow defenders to defend, and attackers to attack.

[00:08:18] Okay. This isn't about one group of players being bad or doing the wrong things or coaches being evil. This has nothing to do with, or umpires being dumb and wrong. None of those things apply. Everybody is trying to compete. Everybody's trying to score their goal or trying to stop the goal. And coaches are trying to figure out how they can best use these plays.

[00:08:41] So it's very important for us to focus on coming up with a solution. Much less than it is about, you know, deciding that there are intentional dangerous, um, sort of framing it in that aspect. These are, these are situations that lead to a lot of danger and they are leading to injuries. But it's not because people are being assholes.

[00:09:08] Okay. Basically, if I can say it that way. Um, okay. So Discord is having some connectivity problems. Um, let's see, am I okay? I seem to be okay. So that's the good news. I'm okay in Discord. So hopefully everybody will be able to get in, but as always I'd love to hear in the comments your thoughts on this initial scenario.

[00:09:39] So hopefully we've, um, if you didn't see the initial play, that's okay. And what the result was, because that means you come with it with your own eyes and your own decision. But I did include that in the first replay. Uh, let's see what we got here. Everybody chime in. Uh, Murph, there's an interesting dynamic here where the defender can clearly see where the guy in front is doing what the guy in front, the attacker is doing and still runs into him.

[00:10:09] That's a really good point. So that's part of this whole. Structure of the play, and I've talked about this in the context of, of slide tackles, which are not slide tackles, they are just sliding, attacking plays, where an attacker will come in and they'll be diving in front of the goal and they'll be on their bellies and they'll be at full stretch and they're looking at the ball and they're trying to get their stick on the ball and then a defender comes running from behind them and collides into them and somehow that's determined the game.

[00:10:41] the Or, perhaps some people believe that the guidance that requires a sliding tackle that makes contact with a player in possession of the ball, that takes that player down to the ground, that is an automatic 10 minute yellow card. I believe that's a mistake, I don't think that is the intention of that briefing, I don't think that is the intention of what we are trying to protect in this game, and when you, I'm not saying that players have an onus of dodging dangerous things, but there is a line there, where if you can see that as a defender, and you run into it, and Who is causing the danger?

[00:11:23] And this is something that I'm, I'm constantly pushing and stressing. When we talk about dangerous shots on goal, when we talk about sliding, when we talk about a play like this, which, you know, uh, some people can look and say, oh, well, there's a little bit of a slide by that attacker. It takes a player to ground.

[00:11:42] Therefore it's a slide tackle. To me, that is not true. It is neither a slide, nor is it a tackle. It's simply a play. That can be interpreted as dangerous. It doesn't mean that just because it's not a slide tackle doesn't mean that it can't be a 10 minute yellow card. It absolutely can. But it is logically unsupportable and it's unfair to players to put a blanket over this kind of thing that does not apply because we are going to get all kinds of unintended consequences.

[00:12:18] Let's see. Look, I'm just saying, it does. Um, let's see. Murph, he's making zero intent to stop the ball. Look at his stick. You think he's 1 and 10 minute yellow for the opposition. Well, and, I mean, it's, it's an interesting dilemma. I'm not sure if that defender, what else he could do with his stick in this moment.

[00:12:40] Let me go to, um, this is fun times here. I have this, and I can get a little more. So we're looking at 17 here. This is the dude. And if he has, so his stick is here, he's doing okay. I'm not sure what else he should, oh, that's not working. There we go. I pressed the wrong button. So I'm not sure what else he might be able to do with his stick to more adequately show an intention to play the ball.

[00:13:20] Because any more and he's probably striking the attacker with his stick in the moment.

[00:13:37] So I'm going to slow this down a lot so I can, I can replay this.

[00:13:46] And one of the things we can talk about is the running line. Okay. With the defender coming this way and then like this, I don't think that defender is under an onus to take, say, a more direct running line like this, because that would then… Unsight the goalkeeper. And I don't think he wants to do that whatsoever.

[00:14:07] So it's not about that either. Okay. And I'm trying to really apply like from the player's perspective, thinking to this, because if we don't, we're going to come up with a solution. It's really tough to find a principle in here that I'm going to be able to apply to many different situations. And I'll show you another instance in a minute that really gets us a little bit twisted around.

[00:14:33] And. But I'm, I'm looking at it from those perspectives, because that's really important for us. To study this and understand what are players trying to achieve? And are they doing so, when they are trying these things, are they doing so outside of the sphere of the rules as we understand them? Are they doing so in a way that does not, uh, respect the, the safety of their opponents?

[00:14:59] And all of that sort of thing.

[00:15:09] Okay, everything in slo mo looks worse, everything looks more intentional, everything looks more like players could have made different choices with their lives when we play them in slo mo. So my intention is not to, to draw that out, but to let us see what the actions of the players were. So if you were wondering, for example, whether the The player, whether the attacker here, who is coming in right there, whether he went in with a slide…

[00:15:44] He didn't. He ends up sort of sliding his foot, his, his back foot here on the right because he gets his, the momentum of the guy coming through him on the back, like, pushes his body and then his foot's still over there and blah, blah, blah, if that makes any sense.

[00:16:03] Um, let's see. Um, Audi, EHL, um, I don't know if they always have it in the round, in the knockout round of 16. Um, they definitely do starting in… And eight in the final four. And if that's, it's not about it being harsh. Um, it's about money and it's about equipment at various facilities. So if they want to be able to bring the EHL, take the EHL to facilities that maybe don't have the broadcast level stuff, then.

[00:16:39] You know, they have a choice. They can do this at Wagner stadium. Every, every event can be a Wagner, which has all the wiring and all the broadcast facilities, and it's really, really great, or they can take some of the earlier stage elements of the EHL and play them in different places, which is really important for host clubs.

[00:16:58] It meant a lot to Real Club Depolo to be able to host this. And it always does. It's a massive event. It's huge for the club. When your international team plays at a club, I mean, arguable, maybe in some places that is a big deal. In other places it's, it's not. But for your club to play at your home, that's a big deal for these teams.

[00:17:21] So it's, it's, it's tough to say. Um, let's see, Samantha, you agree with Murph. It would seem like the defender might be trying just to break down the play to stop a goal, possibly. Attacker doesn't look like he was even looking at the running defender. Yeah, and that's one of the things that I really do look for, is the awareness of the players as to where they are in space and whether they are there first, or they are running into a space late.

[00:17:49] And I think, for me, the fact, first of all, that the attacker is looking at the ball, which they normally would. And the defender can see everything in front of them. That, to me, is sort of the overarching,

[00:18:11] Those two factors together make me say, This, this is, I'm in favor of the attacker here. Whatever the result might be, Is in favor of the attacker.

[00:18:26] Um, Okay, well I'm not going to argue facts with you because I don't think it's important, but On another occasion I will absolutely argue facts with you because I think I've got it right here, that makes it very clear, but that's okay. I was told last week by a good friend of mine that I am far too corrective, and I'm like, it's my job to be correct.

[00:18:49] And I love being corrected when I need to be corrected, but if it's not correct, then I will correct it, because that's my job.

[00:18:58] Spencer, good to see you. I think, wait, wait, mm, because I think you're new. And if you're not new, you just get another air horn. No problem there. The defender creates the danger by going into this body. The attacking team is using this specific PC to score and possibly, and he's possibly stopping a scoring opportunity.

[00:19:20] Yeah, it's clearly a design play. You're absolutely right about that. This is where that attacker wants to go. Now let's flip it a little bit on its head and talk about what responsibility the attacker does have in this situation. Is an attacker able to run across the line of a defender in order to block their progress?

[00:19:41] To the top of the circle, for example, or block their ability to access the balls it's coming as they wish it. Are there any restrictions on that? Do we put any limitations on what attackers can do? Because. If we don't, then we're basically allowing attackers to run pick plays all over the place, which is, again, part of the designed play.

[00:20:08] Do we say that it's okay to run a pick as long as you're trying to get to the ball first? Is that the, is that the distinguishing factor? As long as the ball is coming to that player and they're in the space first, does that making that run, that, that line okay, even though it blocks that defender? I would argue yes.

[00:20:35] Um, I think you have a logically consistent construction there that you can apply to every situation. It's when they run lines and they're simp they're, they're just running across and they're not there to make a play on the ball, then you start thinking, well, why are you doing that then? You're trying to open up space for other things to happen.

[00:20:55] Like, let's say that ball, why am I going like this when I have this funky little tool in front of me?

[00:21:03] Okay, so what if the penalty corner option here, as they're playing, is not for this option at all, but this guy's going to lay off here, and what this attacker is doing is running 17 to stop him, so now this attacker has a nice clear flick or shot. Does any of those doodles make sense at all? I don't know.

[00:21:30] You see what I mean, though? There's a difference between those two things. One is trying to play the ball. The other is trying to interfere and obstruct another player in order to create space in what is arguably an illegitimate and maybe dangerous way. Anthony, good to see you again, friend. Uh, obviously, it's Judge McCall who creates the contact.

[00:21:56] Both players have the right to the space, yep, and what I'm trying to figure out is who has more of a right to the space.

[00:22:06] Um,

[00:22:11] Fraser. It's two pillory strokes, one for the… one for attacking Barry and obviously one for the umpires. There you go, and for Mike, uh, the overhead shot for you declares that he's not attempting play the ball. I think that the problem is that it looks very much from this, um…

[00:22:37] When the defender realizes what play is being run, Thank you. I agree that it's, it's, but it's not about a stick. It's about how he's running and he just continues to run straight into the attacker. That's, to me, is what shows it's not about his stick position because I don't know what else he could do with the stick because if he elevates it over, you know, then we say, oh, he's not trying to play the ball because he's lifted a stick up because he's trying to get over the guy who's the guy.

[00:23:07] Barry Middleton, who is on, you know, is, is very low in a crouch trying to get into a deflected position. I'm doing this. You cannot see what I'm doing with my arm. Hi, Gareth. Defender's eyes can be focused on the ball, so they could create a small delay. Tacker starts upright in the very last split second, body position goes down low.

[00:23:27] Yeah, but how else is he going to get the ball? Like we don't penalize players for lowering their body position in an attempt to play the ball. We penalize them if they go down in a low position in order to create a long barrier, because it's highly likely that they'll play the. and that's literally just a word.

[00:23:47] playing the ball with their body or that they're blocking space from another player from a defensive or defenders perspective, so we can't confuse the concepts and we can't. That is another sort of blanket thing that we go, oh, players can't go low. Well, of course they can. you And we don't want to discourage them from doing that because good stuff, good hockey can happen when players dive down on the ground and play the ball.

[00:24:15] There's a lot more nuance and context to it that we have to explore and we have to have this in our minds.

[00:24:26] Yeah, I mean, look, we are a sport of pragmatism and things vary and that's all we can do. It was very interesting, though, Audie, to watch the 16 matches. And see how different it was when players didn't have the ability and umpires didn't have the ability to go back to, um, to a third umpire who could look at things in slow motion at different angles and repeatedly the way that we're doing right now, their behavior, the way that they treat it, whoops, the way that they treated the umpires on the pitch, the way that they.

[00:25:05] They, they, they behaved in the moment in order to try to get certain decisions and convince the umpires of certain things. I think there was, it was, it was interesting for me because it showed me that players are much more aware of how their instantaneous or their immediate reactions could help them get the decision that they want rather than what might be the correct decision.

[00:25:31] And they're certainly not about letting the umpires do their thing in the moment, are they? Raju, if you look closely, the defender's looking at the ball and not going into the attacker intentionally. It's hard. It's hard to say. It's, I mean, we can't see his face. We can't see his eyes. We can't see any of that.

[00:25:48] It's all within his vision. And I think that Raju is why so many of us look at this and are starting to think, uh, I think that's the defender that's on the defender. Kev, I'm so mad. How dare you vote on the wrong clip. I think you can change your vote. Alistair, the attacker is set up for the deflection.

[00:26:11] You'd say he has the right to be in the space. Yeah. And I, I think, yeah, I would agree with that. You don't think they're looking at each other. Just looking at the ball and that might not, and that might not have the awareness of the collision about to happen. So that's a lewd. Of course we're here to argue.

[00:26:29] But I, I'm going to spend my energy arguing on, on things that actually matter. Not facts just because I want to be right.

[00:26:41] There you go. Not to say it wasn't dangerous, but the intent isn't there. Okay. Okay. That's. That's fair. And the sound, why? The sound effects were coming through for me.

[00:27:00] Um, is there a foot? It means the ball would have changed direction. I don't, maybe Jonathan? I don't know. Okay. Thank you.

[00:27:14] I don't know. That's pretty tough. I don't know what you did, sir, but, stop. That's my friend. Oh, yes, that was me, the one who said, stop being so damn corrupt. Is that, is that a word? Is that the concept? Um,

[00:27:35] yeah, I, I don't know. We can take a couple of different views of the defender's behavior. I mean, absolutely running at that generative pace and then colliding with a player lower than you, that could probably have an impact that is painful on your lower legs, areas, knees, something, something. Why is, why is the attacker clutching his head?

[00:28:10] Um, because you got an elbow in it? That's what I would say. The attacker turned around and was set for a possible tip in. Yeah. Gareth. Uh, if the attacker is in control of the ball, that would have been backing into the defender. The attacker is knowingly running into a tight area and not knowing where he's going.

[00:28:29] That is another, you know, possible interpretation, Gareth, and that's something that we have to keep in mind. And that's exactly what I was trying to get at when I was talking about obstructive lines being run by penalty corner attack. That they're trying to run across lines in order to disrupt the run of the defenders who should be allowed to get to their spots.

[00:28:52] If that's, you know, if, if, if they're trying to run across spaces and things like that, but then you start getting into, well, you know, who's entitled to what? So it's tough. Defender is in a position, um, in that position should never play the ball in reverse. It will likely change direction, uh, of the shot, making more difficult.

[00:29:16] He would try to take those space away from an attacker. It was probably too smart for me to understand, Jamal. Hi, Everson. Good to see you. It's been a while. Um, No, no, the play design was not for the, it's a, it's a deflection. There's no attempt to control. That's that's not what it's there. Um, how to just over, hey Ali, sometimes, yes, and that's absolutely true too.

[00:29:46] Sometimes that happens. Okay. It's great watching a slow mo over and over again, but when you're watching the match, you thought it was dangerous play, 18 red agreed with the yellow in the split second that you have. I went the opposite way. As soon as I saw it, I was like, oh, 17's going. That's probably a five minute yellow card.

[00:30:06] And in the moment, um, I think the ball had already gone past, so it wasn't an intentional foul against a player who had an opportunity to play the ball at the moment, so I would have gone repeat PC under rule 12. 5.

[00:30:26] Somebody look it up for me. 12. 5c. It's the rule that nobody knows under the reasons that you call penalty corners. The five reasons and the middle reason is, it's an intentional foul against a player who does not have possession or likely possession of the ball at the time.

[00:30:43] Okay? That was my, that was my initial reaction. What I've thought about since then, I've gone around in circles, around circles, and I want, I want you guys to know that, that when I was saying, like, this is a, like, level 19 challenge decision, that I believe it truly is that difficult. Michael Richardson.

[00:31:11] It looks to you like the Holcombe player is alone in position to play the ball, the racing player could have voided it. Okay, fair. Uh, is it too simplistic? asked Simon. Without video replay umpiring, that here there's no fault, it's a no fault hockey incident and they were watching the ball, not each other play on.

[00:31:28] It's not. It's not too simplistic at all, because collisions do happen. I just think, I think the defender is God. God eyes. And you're late. Hi Mubenno! Um, the attacker's intention may not have been to cause danger, but it's the action of a slide. He doesn't slide. He doesn't slide. He literally gets collided into and then his feet move because the rest of his body goes.

[00:31:56] I, there you go, Murph, is that enough of an argument of fact for you? We have to be very careful. A slide is a deliberate choice by a player to take their run and then say, I'm now gonna go onto the ground and I'm gonna use my momentum and I'm gonna slide across a water based turf and I'm gonna use that momentum that I've generated by running and To continue that movement without the ability to change direction.

[00:32:26] That's why slides can be so dangerous. And why slide tackles against a player in possession of the ball that creates contact that takes that player to the ground needs to be the 10 minute yellow. This is not a slide, and we have to be very careful, Mabeno, about not making that factual mistake. Okay, because then we start awarding penalties that are not factually correct.

[00:32:55] And you're split. I know you just, you only have to watch it about 45 times before you start doubting your own sanity and going back there. And there we go. It's 12. 3. Okay. There you. 12. 3. So I think it's like C, sub C. Yeah, there it is. Thank you, Rachel. Perfect. Okay. Before we go to the poll, what I want to do is I want to show you, um, I want to show you another clip.

[00:33:24] I don't want to confuse the issue, but this came to me this morning, and I thought it was a really interesting, very close parallel, factually. And big thanks to Robbie for sending this through Twitter, and we had a little bit of a chat with it, about it. And this actually happened this weekend.

[00:33:56] Okay. So a lot of similarities. Whoops.

[00:34:05] But, what do you see that you perceive as being different? Because it's not identical, so what is it that you see? And I want, I really want you to try to figure that out. If you want me to flip back and forth from the two plays, I can because I have the technology. And no worries, this is, this is how we learn together.

[00:34:26] This is how, you know, I have to press myself in thinking and I encourage you all to, to join me on that journey because that's going to make you a more precise and accurate umpire for sure. Hi Gary Ashford. Have yourself a DJ air horn. Uh,

[00:34:49] you've seen keepers penalized for going to ground, not sliding, which causes chaos when you give one for a goalkeeper being an idiot. I, I, I know there are incorrect calls. They get me and that's why I spend so much time talking about decisions so that we can develop principles that we can apply on the pitch in the future so that we get calls right so that everybody can play their best hockey, including goalkeepers, even goalkeepers.

[00:35:14] I want them to play well too. And Fraser's making up rules. My favorite. Okay. So I'm just, I'm waiting until I can get some comments in from people to help with this This particular scenario. Okay, this is the first one.

[00:35:47] Okay, this is scenario one. This is scenario two.

[00:36:03] Seems like contact was made on the follow through. Anthony, this is on the attackers. He created the contact. The defender was already in the space. Okay. So for Anthony, he sees a reversal of the priority or the right of way, as it were, that the defender actually has slowed up and is in an occupying a space and the attacker continues his movement into that defender space.

[00:36:35] Uh, Samantha, you'd say the defender was in the space first, stick down the attacker in the deflection, set up back into the opponent, or just ran into him, yep, take him to the ground, gotcha, light blue still moving, red player for the deflection, that's the first one. Um, okay. And that was that. Hi Neil! New clip attacker goes into the defender first.

[00:36:57] First clip defender into attacker. I would never put that burden on you, Fraser. Okay. So, I really like this clip because it really helps us, I think, determine that they, what we're really looking for is who gets there first. And that is what we need to take into our matches and be assessing. That is what we're looking for.

[00:37:26] Who's in the space first? Who's getting there first? Okay. And when you are umpiring and you're with your colleague and you are a team and you're figuring this out and you don't have video replays and you don't have lots of angles and you don't have me talking in your head going, let's go through the principles now.

[00:37:48] What you're arranging in your pre match chat is the allocation of responsibilities here. You as the supporting umpire, take a few things off your plate, like whether the ball goes outside the circle or not. Don't, that shouldn't be you. You should be far enough away anyway that you can't really see that.

[00:38:05] You should be, your primary, one of your primary responsibilities has to be whether the ball strikes a player above or below the knee because your colleague cannot see that through the back of that defender, and you have to also be assessing these running lines. It has to be something that you train, that you practice, that you commit.

[00:38:28] If you are like me and you like to write things on your hand and say, this is what I'm looking for, I am, I am looking for running lines. I don't know, what would I say? I'd say lines, PC lines. I'd write that on my hand so that as I'm going into the game, my awareness is there and I am really working hard to make sure that is what I am helping my colleague with.

[00:38:53] Every single time. And the more you do it, you then establish the habit and then you will not unsee it. I think we talk about how we're going to look off the ball. And then we fail to do so because we really haven't practiced it. We haven't deliberately ignored the ball. And it's hard here because we can't, because I just said, you have to look for the ball hitting the player above or below the knee.

[00:39:16] It's like, ah, fuck, you know, conflict. It is, yes, we have to contain a multitude here, but if you have those two jobs, you have a chance. If you are going to watch the ball and you're going to study it the same way that your colleague does, for the same reasons, you're not helping them. And as supporting umpires, we need to really work on this skill.

[00:39:44] Okay, for Raju, the attacker in the second clip is taking the defender down. And Rachel, the second clip, the contact made with the ball. And, heh, I mean, yeah, the ball goes on the goal in the second clip. That's, that's not what I meant. We're not gonna get into that, really. Cause that's a difficult one.

[00:40:10] I know, I'm, I'm not here for easy answers. And the second clip for Kev, second clip, uh, attacker into defender. That's absolutely, yeah. And it's, it's mandatory. It just has to be mandatory and it has to be part of your pre match chat. So one of the questions that I was asked when I was at my, um, umpiring Rhapsody tour stop in Reading was, you know, what does your pre match chat consist of, and I'm like, as many things as I can, depending on how much time I have, but this is the order in which you approach it because you don't have all day, so many of us are umpiring in situations where we don't.

[00:40:49] You know, it's not matches like this where we're at tournaments and we can get together over breakfast and then our matches at 7 p. m. that night. That's not how, that's not how we roll. Okay. And I mean, I enjoyed that when I had that opportunity at tournaments, it's awesome. But for some of us, we're running off the pitch, ripping off our shin guards and in five minutes, we're going to be out there with a whistle.

[00:41:11] So what do we do? And the first thing that I talk about after we've decided which side each of us are on, is I say, this is what we're going to do on PCs, okay? What do you, what help do you want from me? This is what I need from you. Because they're the big decisions. That's, it, it's, it's, it's critical to have that ironed out.

[00:41:31] And if you have that cooperation, everything else can cascade from that. So that has to be high up in your priority of your pre match chat. And I do have a pre match chat card that, uh, you can, hopefully the trigger will work on the website. Oh, look, technical. Okay, uh, if it doesn't, just send me a DM, do something, and ask me for it, and I'll just send it to you.

[00:41:53] And I have everything in a specific order, because I think if you have to triage and you only get to number three on the list, you're still gonna have a decent game. If you can get to seven, awesome. If you can get all the way through the 12 things, great. But you kind of have to get to three as soon as you can.

[00:42:15] Um, yeah, and, and, and this is interesting because we're going to see a clip in a second. I'm thinking with my pencil on my nose. We're going to see a clip in a second from Dutch, uh, Hoofdklasse and a supporting umpire is out wide. And they don't have video referral. And apparently it's circulating in some areas that that's where you should go.

[00:42:48] And

[00:42:53] it's going to happen. I have to do this.

[00:43:03] It's a good thing I didn't actually do the swear. We have to be better about understanding why we do things. Why do we position ourselves somewhere? And if we do not have video referral, the very. The, the rather wide, five to 10 meters off the sideline does not work. It's too wide. It's too wide. If you have video referral, it's great because the video umpire is going to catch the things that you're not going to see if you're closer inside, if you're 15 to 20 meters inside, okay?

[00:43:40] But the rest of us, us mortals who are out there umpiring without video referral, it doesn't work. So context is important. So if the advice that you're getting doesn't include. Context, and a reason why, ask questions, and then come to me and ask more questions and we'll have more discussion about it. Oh, great.

[00:44:01] That's really nice. Okay. Let's go to the poll. Cause I just, I like listed every option I could. So, we have, we have some play ons. We've got, okay, we've got one person who said play on. We've got a free hit defense and a 10 minute yellow. We've got a penalty corner, so a repeat, retake. We've got a PC and actually five, did five people?

[00:44:30] Five people looked at just replaying another PC that it was a collision and Okay, we've got a PC and a green, we've got a PC and a five minute yellow card, and we've got a stroke and a five minute yellow card. So for that you have to feel that the player was either in possession or likely possession and the foul disadvantaged them in that action, okay?

[00:44:57] And if that's your determination, okay, do I think that that, I think the ball is already gone. So for me, that's kind of… You know, part of it. Was it proper? Okay. Um, you don't mean wide, wide to correct the previous statement. It's okay. Murph, if I don't understand the context, I try to let things go over.

[00:45:22] Cause sometimes I react to statements and they're out of context or they're not couched in the right context. And then I overreact and I'm the asshole. So I don't want to be an asshole here. So I just kind of went whoosh and I let it go. That's me exercising my strength.

[00:45:38] No need to bite your nails. But, there you go. Yep, Gary, that's, that's a nice sort of simple crystallization there. That both players are trying to get to the same space, but it's whether they get there first and whether they, um, they continue into space that is occupied by somebody else. You've had some guidance recently not to stand more central as you can still see the line to the post goal and there's a quick turnover.

[00:46:13] Really? Is the worst thing that's ever happened to any of us is being in the middle of the pitch? Really? It's not. It's not the worst thing. Is it the worst thing to get hit by the ball? No. Why are we so fucking scared of this? Sorry. Sorry, YouTube. It's really not the end of the world. You know what the, what the end of the world is?

[00:46:39] Missing a penalty stroke call. That's the end of the world.

[00:46:46] That's the world. Okay, so I think we covered this very, very thoroughly. It's, yeah, it's been 45 minutes. Um, and I hope that by comparing those two clips, you got a Some sort of sense of this. I'm interested to talk to a few more people about this. Um, Brendan Creed, I know you're watching because you're a big fan of the stream, having been a prior guest, and just as I'm a diligent listener to Let's Stick Together, you are a diligent watcher of the stream and you're gonna, you're gonna come to me already and you're gonna say, Keely, I have feelings and I want to hear your feelings.

[00:47:26] This is important because I'm trying to understand how to put together something that I can give umpires a tool That gives them some logical consistency, so that they can make accurate decisions. And the more accurate that they are, and consistent they are, the better job we're going to be able to do to keep you as players safe.

[00:47:48] Okay, so that's my goal here, and I hope that, you know, by having these sort of conversations that'll help a few other people I'll talk to, um, you can always add your own poll, um, answers, Crazer. True story. Okay, let's go into another. We're asking a few questions of the wild slide. I'm struggling to come up with a situation here.

[00:48:09] All of the necessary answers all got a good break. You're have to ev vote quickly 'cause I have to move the discussion along all. Yes, that's a penalty court. Not all day long, isn't it really? Uh, look, rustic feet first challenge. I am doing mental gymnastics here. Not like giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[00:48:26] He slipped like the, he slipped. Yeah, I think he did slip. It looked horrible. It did look horrible if it wasn't deliberate. So please go to the poll and have your very quick vote. Again, it's not to see how many people are wrong, how many people are right, blah, blah, blah. It's to exercise your commitment to a decision because…

[00:48:48] One of the problems I feel like I might get into by just analyzing things is that I forget that, Oh, in the second, I have to make a decision when I do get on the pitch and I do have a whistle in my hand, I have to blow it. I have to make a decision. I don't, I don't get to have a 90 minute show talking about that thing I just saw on my pitch.

[00:49:08] So

[00:49:15] thoughts, thoughts and prayers, everybody. Thoughts and prayers.

[00:49:29] I wonder if I go to the poll, because the poll will be live, but I was delayed for 30 seconds. Hmm.

[00:49:38] Let me see if, if I'll check over here so that you guys can keep seeing 1B. Okay, we have a few people chiming in for cards and I'd like to know what your thought process is on that. Why you feel there is a card, either a, Oh, somebody took away their 10 minute yellow card. I can see it live. This is great.

[00:50:05] Everybody's changing their votes. What's going on?

[00:50:11] It's okay if you click the wrong button, but commit people. I mean, I guess you can go talk to your colleague. Oh, they came back. They came back. They're like, yes, I'm doubling down on the Tenement yellow card. And, uh, let's see, Neil, thank you for, for getting in there. The defender slipped for you. Not intentional.

[00:50:36] And you just want a free hit for the attack because it wasn't intentional. Okay. Anthony, and this is an interesting one. Okay. And, and I, I like that Jonathan brought this out for us. Because if it's not intentional, how do we justify the penalty corner decision?

[00:51:04] And the shape of the defender's bodies and legs, how did he not break his knee? I don't know how both of those players came out of this alive, but they did. So on the first look it's a breakdown tackle inside the 23 in a PC, but on replay you can see it slips so it's accidental, but the first call is the one that you would make.

[00:51:22] And the defender's not taking adequate care of his movement and ends up sliding into the attacker, okay? And this is Simon doing the work and getting us into the point where we say he's reckless as to the result. That he has to be careful enough that he doesn't cause danger to the opponent, doesn't break down the playbook, because he didn't, he didn't do an action that was more positively towards he's going to ground.

[00:51:52] He's in full control of his actions. If he was, if he had been running up and then he goes down into a slide and goes on his butt and goes feet first, we all know what that resulted. That is the guidance. That is the automatic 10 minute yellow card. Absolutely. Okay. So Michael, you'd go a free hit attack for you because it wasn't intentional to upgrade to a PC.

[00:52:16] And this is why I'm very careful about the language that we use because it is. It is more adaptive to the way that we approach the game from a flow perspective and understanding the decisions that players do make that lead to risky consequences and that they have to be In, they, they have to be held responsible for riskier decisions.

[00:52:50] Is it a high risk thing? Now, this player doesn't come from the side, from behind the player. So he's not in a high risk tackling position. He's in a great tackling position.

[00:53:04] Uh, for Murph, it's in not intentional, it's clumsy. Before he slipped completely, his feet were already going forward for a tackle.

[00:53:20] Hmm. He may have slipped, but he was still going two feet first into the tackle with his stick in his left hand. I think because he's like trying to stop and then he realized he doesn't have his footing. It's hard. Ben, good to see you. Because he has come into the tackle with pace, reckless. Yeah, let's have a look at that.

[00:53:40] I want to look at the, 1B.

[00:53:55] And I'm going to slow this down immensely. And I can even do this. I can, whoo, whoops.

[00:54:11] Okay, so here we are. We've got about, I don't know, Eight meters, maybe 10, in between the defender and the attacker. The attacker hasn't received the ball yet, and the defender isn't really in movement. They're, they're just sort of starting their movement now.

[00:54:35] This was going to be really good until the, the camera shifted focus here.

[00:54:44] I don't think it's, it's good to look for. And I, Spencer, I appreciate, you know, that you're looking for that, but I don't think literally the defender took two, two steps towards the ball. So if that's considered a pace, well, he's got better pace than any human being I've seen. I think he comes two steps and he realizes that he's, he's over committed with those two steps.

[00:55:11] And then he's trying to put his right foot down because he wants to pivot, or he wants to stop, or do something else, and that's when he goes. Flip by the defender, no card, just the PC, you're voting in the wrong poll, didn't have to change. Oh my god, don't we all wish, okay? So.

[00:55:34] I understand what Simon's saying about taking ample care. I really appreciate Spencer's comment because it caused me to have a look at the play more carefully as to what the defender was doing before the ball arrived. And, yeah, it was an epic zoom in, wasn't it?

[00:55:57] So, let me, let me…

[00:56:06] Now I want to do this. Okay. So here's… Oh, I was zooming in the wrong guy. Okay. Oh no, he does get the ball there. Okay, so there's the two.

[00:56:25] It's just really poor athleticism.

[00:56:30] And it looks weird for this to have been just a penalty corner, doesn't it? Because we expect that if there's such a physical nature to this challenge… That if it's that dangerous, and it's reckless as to that danger, it needs to be more than just a penalty corner. So the repetition danger impact RDI framework that I use to try to help us get to the right results in these sort of plays would take me to, that needs to be at least a green, but probably a yellow.

[00:57:08] A stand alone, that's a five minute yellow. It's not a mandatory 10 because it's not a slide tackle. He's not in that full control, but he's reckless as to the result, it's dangerous, it breaks down play. Maybe you call that impact, I don't think so. And this is only, well this is Q3 with two minutes left.

[00:57:28] So, for me, it's weird to try to make this just a penalty corner. Selling it as a free hit attack is going to be difficult, probably is the more accurate decision. The decision that all the players expected, penalty corner. Let's see what you guys have to say. In the poll, so 5 people want the free hit attack, and 9 for the penalty corner, and there's 3 people who want a penalty corner and a card, and that's totally fine, um, and then the 10 minute, you know, that's a little rough, that's a little rough.

[00:58:10] Okay, last one for the sliding stuff. The slidey slides. This one is going to not, kind of, this is going to be a little bit difficult to show. So I'm not going to spend too much time on it because it was on the far side and it

[00:58:29] was hard, but same game. I think we're always agreed that in many ways, the space between the legs. I haven't even been the same player on plays in or however you pronounce it properly. Getting in on that. Good to see you, friend. Okay. So I tried to show on the replays. So what we have is a, an, a player attempting.

[00:58:57] Just going full out, trying to keep the ball in play. And we have an opponent running. Which is, in my point of view, is the priority, but then you've got to be able to react to the, to the deflection, and this, you can see clearly how he was expecting the deflection, and so, waiting to protect the deflection, but when nobody touched it, he wasn't able to deal with the direct shot.

[00:59:21] But if there was no intent, Anthony, if you don't think that he should have been more careful, then why I stru I, I don't, I, I know what you're saying, but I don't think you can justify a penalty corner. It's an accidental foul that had a massive impact then? Like that's not grounds for a penalty corner. It either has to, it has to be reckless as to the result.

[00:59:53] Yes, and the poor ball kid. He was really looking to do his job. Got all tangled up in that, which is, in my point of view is, is the priority. But then you've got react to that and I'm not sure if I had anything the deflection, yeah, I did have a ball on this. So see clearly how he was expecting the deflection and so went to protect the deflection might, when he touched it, he wasn't able to deal with the direct shot.

[01:00:16] Well, as a conversation I often, often have with myON wants a, always agreed that in many ways, and much as it was a split, the impacted defender. And the play warrants this. So for you, it's the impact that it is reckless as to how it happens. Accidental fouls can have a massive impact in the game. We can't call them anything more than accidental though.

[01:00:41] Like if it truly is, the player is running and they've got their stick here and then the ball hits their feet, you know, back there and they're, and they're just running at full tilt and their feet just… Purely accidentally get in the way, just because that stops that breakaway doesn't mean that it's necessarily reckless as a result.

[01:01:01] So where do we find that line and how do we find that

[01:01:10] more accurately? And so Murph, you're seeing that the um, the black player here is just not trying to play the ball, just running. LL situation. And that's, it's an interesting one. Like, why, why is he bothering to do that? As a player, I would be like, all right, I'm ready for this guy to keep the ball and play.

[01:01:31] If he doesn't, it's our ball. If he does, then if I stay on my feet, I'm going to get it. And if I don't run like right at him, he's just going to give the ball to me. Like, why does he have to run that line? In so hard, it's just which is in my point of view is the priority But then you got to be able to react to the the deflection and this you can see clearly Able

[01:02:01] to deal with the direct shot. He was fine, by the way There's a conversation I often often happen with my co commentators. I think we're always agreed that in many ways between the legs And it's, it's, this is a close game, this happens at, you know, in a tie, and players are looking for things, and they know, they know that when they go down, umpires are instructed to react with, uh, how would you call it, not temerity, they're, they're, they're supposed to react severely, and they don't apply the nuance, which is, in my point of view, is the priority, but then you've got to be able to react to the,

[01:02:51] Outfielders try to score in you, that's not a waste of time, Merr. Now that works. Let's see what, see what we have in polls. Okay. Everybody's like, yeah, play on most people. And then three people want a 10 minute yellow card.

[01:03:11] Why? Jason, reckless, high risk, decision to slide, dive in, because he's sliding at another player?

[01:03:23] Or is he sliding into space, and then another player comes running into that space?

[01:03:30] Hard to see on your phone. Fair. It's a, it's not a good video. It's, I did the best I could with the editing, but. The green card to the attacker, going to ground, created the danger, I'm sure, is the word that you were looking for, that autocorrected danger. Jonathan, controversial opinion, green card to black for time wasting.

[01:03:49] Look, it's, it's not about time wasting, but diving is a form of misconduct. And I did have a conversation. I asked the question when I attended the, um, Pan American, uh, international umpires. Review of the FIH briefing. And I asked the question of the presenters, are you expecting, even though it's been removed from the briefing, it was in the Tokyo brief briefing, and then it got removed in the subsequent briefing.

[01:04:19] So you're expecting umpires to deal with diving as a form of misconduct and for cards to be potential remedies for that? And the answer that was given to me was yes. By the former head of the rules committee and one of the current members of the rules committee. So diving is still something that we're supposed to be mindful of.

[01:04:40] Are we? I don't know.

[01:04:44] Uh, green card to the attacker, went to ground and created the danger. The defender was just running to tackle.

[01:04:55] Hmm. There is no middle ground. I know it's hard.

[01:05:06] Hmm.

[01:05:11] I have a problem when we assign recklessness to simply the action of going to the ground. If that action going to ground is not taking that player towards someone else, how can we consider that reckless? Doesn't there need to be a degree of, all right, I'm going to get on my belly. I'm going to get on my legs and I'm going to let my momentum carry me towards this person.

[01:05:41] And if I hit them, oops, that's what we're trying to stop. We're not trying to stop players from going to ground. We're just not, it's still legal for them to do that, sliding into space. Okay. Thoughts, thoughts for you all to thought about. And think about. Okay. Uh, let me go to that section before we get into any meaty things again, where I cover announcements and a couple just pieces of errata.

[01:06:15] I just need to break this up because otherwise we just go clip, clip, clip, clip, and it gets really boring. Don't forget that as with every week, today's show is brought to you by FHumpires Mission Critical Positioning. This is the foundation, our cornerstone course. That will be the basis of all of your umpiring awesomeness going forward.

[01:06:39] Jason Krebin signed up for yellow, just so he could get this included. And I don't know how he's doing with it, but I think he's probably doing pretty well. Let's find out. Um, we're going to see in the next section, why mission critical positioning is so important. So put a pin in it. It's happening. Okay.

[01:07:01] Um, also something that we're trying this weekend. We've been, we've been warming up to this and I've been very like on the DL sort of piecing the steps together for this. With our FHU3T mentoring group, this is the level of membership that Jason just joined. Hi Jason. Um, I'm really putting a focus this season.

[01:07:31] Starting in September to really be looking at people's videos. So instead of discussing umpiring concepts or just talking about things in the, in the server, through the written word, I want to see your videos. And a couple of weeks ago, we did a debrief with Mike McDowell, and he took a set of wireless radios, recorded himself and his colleague talking throughout the match.

[01:07:58] And then he overlaid that over the video that he got and edited that together. Now, don't worry about the complexity of that for a sec, but what we got for the debrief was us being able to hear everything that the two of them were saying, plus being able to overhear some of what the players were saying, and it was like an international match.

[01:08:17] It was freaking amazing, and I got so excited about it, that this weekend… I have somebody beta ing, beta ing, beta ing, testing out this in another match, so they're just gonna hook up wireless audio to their phone and somebody's just gonna record them on the phone and record them. And if, if your colleague, if your yellow, the colleague of the yellow member doesn't want to be recorded, fine.

[01:08:44] You know, you don't have to hook up to your radio, but it'd be cool if we could hear you. And then I can take that because specifically a lot of the things I want to coach about are communication skills. How are you talking to the players? When are you talking to the players? Why are you saying things to the players?

[01:08:58] What's your tone of voice? Is it too much? Is it too little? How are you talking to your colleague? All those things, really crucial components of a coaching package for me. If you want to know more about that, there is a QR code that you can scan and go look at what we do with the third team. And… The MCP wants you.

[01:09:19] Yes, that's very true. I keep saying mission, do I say mission control? I do. I accidentally say mission control positioning sometimes because it's, it's, you feel very much like you're just running the show from there. But there you go. Um, but that is not going on a shirt. That's not going on a shirt. So anyway, I'm very excited about that.

[01:09:44] The last thing that I wanted to mention that could be a bit of a rant Um, Let's see how, oh, I don't have a lot of time, but I wanted to talk about this. This showed up in Instagram a couple weeks ago and I didn't have time to deal with it last week, but, uh, Armand, uh, Triepels. How did I do? To all my Dutch friends in the audience, Armand Triepels, uh.

[01:10:10] Had what he would consider to be a bit of a, um, not a brain fart, but he made a mistake at a crucial junction, right, the last penalty corner awarded in the game and this feature came out through HockeyNL and whoops, we're gonna have to watch it on loop, sorry everybody, and I can't turn on the audio because I don't want a copyright takedown in case there's any sound that triggers things.

[01:10:38] That was the penalty stroke that scored and gave Oranje-Rood the victory in what had been a tie game. So it's a penalty corner injection, and the, you can see the controlling umpire looks to Armand, uh, I can't remember the controlling umpire's name, he's from Belgium, looks for a little help, and unfortunately the help that he gets from Armand is incorrect.

[01:11:05] What is interesting about this was the story that came out on HockeyNL afterwards, and uh, Luis, Luis the clerk, um, this story, and what I want to say first of all is, Armand, good on you, sir, for saying Oh, we looked at the footage and I got it wrong. I thought I got it right, but I got it wrong. My sincere apologies and I feel terrible and this, this is every umpire's worst nightmare.

[01:11:38] Absolutely correct. Good for you for taking responsibility and being accountable and apologizing. But, uh, Jeroen Visser, dude, even after all of this apology, this entire article is, we deserve to win and it was the umpire's fault. It was an expensive loss of points. Um, of course we didn't do well ourselves by not taking the chances, but if as a referee you give this match as a gift to the Oranje-Rood, I think that really has no chance.

[01:12:12] Um, sir, consider your life choices. And if you think that an umpire is the one that determines the match, you're coaching the wrong team. You should become an umpire coach.

[01:12:33] Really, really poor. Really, really poor. Okay.

[01:12:42] I even have a gift for that. We're gonna go into dangerous shots at goal, which also makes me want to just go

[01:12:50] It's happened, uh, a couple of times again.

[01:12:57] What? The umpire, I think, is gonna consult here. Tomo. I'm

[01:13:03] not sure this one is gonna stand, Adrian. Okay, so this Rassen Club defaults and Holcomb match. There's a few things. There's a few things that happened there. Um, we don't select faults. So let me know what you think about this.

[01:13:33] We'll move through it pretty quickly because I'm running out of time. But I know that this, I, I would be preaching to the converted if I were to say, Hey friends, remember the whole maximum, maxim, that um, shots at goal can be dangerous? And this is a good example, I think, of a play that is. So let me pull this out.

[01:14:01] Um, two, eight. There we go. Le change.

[01:14:09] Okay, from this angle, it's pretty difficult, right? But you have the player entering and the ball is going to go straight across this way, right? But you can already see with me drawing that angle, that kind of goes through a bunch of guys.

[01:14:35] And then when we look at it from this perspective here,

[01:14:42] We have the marking defender of the ball carrier. Okay, we have marking, marking, marking. Okay, nowhere we would expect a player not to be. Nowhere else I'd rather go. Okay, and these players here, I mean, this, this guy kind of floats off to help, but they're all marking. They're defenders, and I think it's the impact comes in this moment.

[01:15:17] Can I see the ball?

[01:15:25] You can see, we don't care about this guy because he's a teammate. LEA doesn't count, but do we see LEA there? Um, we see something very interesting happening in this situation,

[01:15:46] okay, but I think we see enough there that would have us thinking about whether that was. Legitimate evasive action, whether that was dangerous. I'm going to go to the poll pretty quickly, so let me know. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's, it's a loop, right? It's a loop. If, um, if you listen to Let's Stick Together, which honestly is my favorite listen of anything I listen to on Overcast, my podcast app, I've, I've had such a good time listening to season five.

[01:16:21] I've just been like lolling, just rothling. I'm just having so much fun listening to the guys, Yoop's been on fire, but Yoop, dude, we've got to find a way for you to be able to have these conversations with an umpire and if the umpire's being the dick, let's figure that out and work on it, but I wonder if they're coming back to you after the game and they're…

[01:16:50] And they're speaking that way and it's making you really, really mad. Are you going into it really, really mad and blaming them for stuff? I, you just, it's not going to work out very well for you. This has to be a two way street and I'll, I am all for calling out umpires who don't take constructive feedback well.

[01:17:14] I'm all for calling out umpires who are officious or defensive or anything like that. Like, let's fix that. Let's, but let's do this all together. Let's do this. Let's stick together, friends.

[01:17:33] Well,

[01:17:36] Yeah, maybe don't give up a penalty corner at the end of the game. How's that? If you had more penalty corners than the other team, maybe score like one of them. One more than you did. Just maybe.

[01:17:58] Anthony, this is dangerous. The ball was hit through a crowd of players in the air where evasive action had to be sought by the defenders. Michael Richardson absolutely agrees. No, uh, no goal. Free defense. Red player takes evasive action. Uh, oh, Murph. Very funny. Um, lower level, definitely dangerous, higher levels.

[01:18:21] It's dangerous here too. There can be danger on shot cycle at this level. Okay. It's 29 that gets the final touch, um, that does lift into the goal. Yes. Safe enough for you. Okay. Um. No, don't. Yeah, do. Please. Come into the server and talk about it because, you know, we need to be able to see ourselves in these moments as well.

[01:18:44] Um, survey says. Um, it's only 59 percent to 42%. Um, okay. I really liked this decision for calling it danger. There's a lot of traffic all in line. All the defenders are where they're supposed to be and they take legitimate evasive action. What else do you need? Those are three very good reasons why that should be dangerous.

[01:19:18] Let's try this one.

[01:19:24] What's going in? What's going in? I'm sure that when you hear on Reaper, when mine catches up to yours,

[01:19:37] that you will. I just gave you the threes. And it is played in by the number 14, uh, so it's a known goal by, uh, Andrew McAllister. And I think they're questioning, or just having a look, right, should say, uh, whether it was kind of dangerous, uh, the pass across.

[01:19:58] Sometimes I just like to watch, think what y'all are gonna say.

[01:20:06] I'm gonna prime up the right angle here, so this happens a little faster. There. There, okay,

[01:20:18] what do we think here?

[01:20:28] In contrast to the earlier situation, I mean, we have, is that like two guys?

[01:20:51] I don't know if you can see what I wrote there. I am questioning life choices being made by two defenders running exactly the same line and both. Doing that, but we have relative space towards the goal. We don't have a bunch of defenders. What we have is one defender who should be marking that dude and isn't.

[01:21:22] That looks a little far to me. Okay. And then,

[01:21:32] the shot's taken.

[01:21:39] It's going really, really slow because I have slow mo on slow mo.

[01:22:00] Okay, so you can put the other factors together and you can come up with, and even though there isn't a crowd, even though there isn't those things, this player, this shot still could be considered not to be on goal. And is that enough for you to call this as being dangerous play? Given all of these things, the distance that it's away, the pace of the ball, how much sight does he have on the ball, all that kind of thing.

[01:22:32] Right, and Simon's pointing that out. Rachel says it's going wide. It's really difficult, and I don't think… Um, unfortunately, what you have is two umpires who will be at the same cross angle to that shot, who are not going to see that whatsoever. This angle is the best, and there is nobody in one umpire. So, this is a really tough call to make, and especially when the ball is going away from you, like this, across your line, right?

[01:23:14] Look, I'm a defender, and when I see something like that, I'm like, why, why? Okay, and he's blocking space, yep, was it a shot on goal or was it a pass? Um, it's goal for you, it's off white sticks, he's playing the ball. Yeah, but that's not, that's not enough. That's not enough. So if you're saying, Jonathan, that he did not take legitimate evasive action, he actually actively tried to play the ball and just failed to do so very well.

[01:23:45] That's fine. That is the logic. That is the legitimate factor that you have to apply to this situation. Not just that it went off white. That's not, that's not enough. Okay.

[01:24:01] But they couldn't, they couldn't, right?

[01:24:09] This is only 25 frames per second. So, we're probably at, every one frame is just like a huge jump.

[01:24:25] And it's just so weird, like, it, um, if, if he was here, anyway.

[01:24:39] And can you consider that legitimate evasive action? And slow mo doesn't look the same way, right?

[01:24:54] Are we on 2B? Go back to this play.

[01:25:03] There. Sorry. I'm looking at I have so many screens! I don't know what I'm looking at.

[01:25:13] So, for Alan, it's you're considering that still a shot at goal? Because it doesn't have to be on target to be a shot at goal, it just has to be close enough. And I understand that logic, but Alan, there's an extra layer of nuance that we put into this when danger is involved. We hold that shot to a higher standard, or the player who's playing that shot to a higher standard can hold a shot to a standard.

[01:25:38] And what we're looking for is to make sure that if we have a reason that we can add in to make it less of a If there sorry, I'm saying bad words. If there are if there's danger involved Oh, my camera's frozen.

[01:26:06] That's very interesting.

[01:26:11] Let's see if I can just fix this by doing this. Hi! Sorry, my camera froze. So this is gonna look a little weird, but I'll do my best. So, we have a problem here in that Because there is danger involved, we hold the, the accuracy of the shot to a higher standard than we would if it was, say, we're determining whether it's the first hit at goal on a penalty corner and things like that.

[01:26:45] If this had gone to video review, I think the video umpire would have come back and said it's not on target. It's not a shot at goal, therefore it's raised and it's got to be done safely. And it is not safe in that circumstance. Murph, you're a jerk. And you think White is trying to play the ball, not avoid it.

[01:27:09] I think the player is trying to, he's spinning away and trying to avoid it. So, let's just see if I can hit the camera really quickly.

[01:27:34] No.

[01:27:37] This is fun. Okay, we're going with my other camera. He's trying to flick towards the back poster which has created danger. No doubt in a low win situation. So it has something to do with, uh, You've changed your mind, free hit defense. Okay, I'll go with that. Um, it's a hard one. Argument that the defender had no reason to be there and put himself in danger also looks like the attacker knows what he's doing.

[01:28:02] He's looking for a penalty stroke. Yeah, it is a really hard one. It is a really hard one. When it comes to these, like, really fine splitting sort of plays, I try to go with the umpire's decision on the pitch because they're in there, they're in the mood, they're in the, in the moment of the game, and I think they would believe this to be a shot at goal.

[01:28:28] If this was reviewed by video, I think they would say it's not a shot at goal. Um, and so I think it's completely legitimate for this to be continued to be called a goal.

[01:28:43] And Gary, in the lead that you umpire, you'd call that dangerous 10 out of 10 points. Completely fair. Okay. Um, there we go. What do we have? Oh my god. Nine eight. I didn't, I was hoping that I had some plays that were easy. I don't know. Yes, Stijn, the guidance of the shot at goal, the ball may miss the goal, but the action is still a shot at goal.

[01:29:09] If the player's intention is to score at the shot directed towards the goal, it's okay with you. I understand that, but if there is danger involved, we heighten that. We actually, because we have to even out. Otherwise, we're going to be putting players in danger, defenders in danger all the time just because, well, I was trying to get it to the goal, but I was just really shit at it, so I accidentally hit the guy.

[01:29:31] But he should be penalized because it's still a shot at goal. We don't, be very careful about just taking the letters of the rules or the guidance and ignoring the context and the spirit of the rules that we're talking about. Uh, Simon, you stick with the original thinking that it was a pass to the player on the back post, but it was raised unsafe.

[01:29:55] And that's fine. I would have gone with a goal anyway and in the moment I would have called it that way and then if I reviewed it I would have gone, oh, maybe not. Hard to say. Hey, I mean this is going to be fine. This is only going to take a couple seconds. Aerial of In short supply. Yeah. Oh, well.

[01:30:21] Okay, you guys watch this and I'll catch up with the comments. Well that would, that would be a huge goal, wouldn't it? Yes, it's the rules, but it's very uncomfortable for the umpire to the goalkeeper, you can argue that he can see that the play is there, he can see that it's five yards, and he has to go into that space, therefore it's a deliberate decision.

[01:30:43] It's not that he's going back into me and doesn't realize he's there, it's unintentional. You could argue it's intentional, but I just think It's the rule, the rule's the rule, it's an intentional foul, but, um, but it's incredibly uncomfortable. You have to be a hundred, hundred percent certain that it's deliberate, and I think that's difficult for the, for the umpire to take that decision, and if he does, it's incredibly awkward.

[01:31:05] They're sticking with the penalty corner.

[01:31:11] I've probably mentioned a couple times that I was part of a webinar that Danny Kerry, Kate Richardson-Walsh, the new coaching staff of the Canadian Women's National Team conducted and Danny made a series of strongly worded comments about how umpires are not recognizing just how many of these infringements actually are intentional.

[01:31:36] And I have that in my mind every time I watch an aerial infringement. And the things that I would look for in this situation are as follows. Oh, that, that smack must have been really terrible to listen to. My deepest apologies. Okay. When I'm looking from the angle here, behind the goal,

[01:32:06] This side on view gives you like nothing really difficult, really difficult. But from here you see here's the, here's the player who's gonna be the initial receiver. And then you see the goalkeeper moving up. And the goalkeeper can see everything that's happening. And when they come from behind like that and they have a clear view of all of that, we take a dimmer view of the intentionality here.

[01:32:40] How do you layer safety for somebody standing right next to a goal? That's an interesting point.

[01:32:48] And so, I think that it was a, um, it was a legitimate question to ask. The other thing I think that is important to talk about, and I alluded to it earlier, is at the moment the decision needs to be made, the ball is probably about here. And the, the guidance that we've been approached is you're, you're looking to make an initial receiver decision when the ball is about 20 meters away from the receiving area, which is yeah, in this space here.

[01:33:28] Okay. And

[01:33:33] this is the worst angle that you can have on this decision. Looking across means that you've been, you've pivoted your head and you've gone from here and you've gone over here and. You're kind of a mess, which is why friends, we have this thing called mission critical positioning.

[01:34:13] And I think the interesting part is Anthony, I don't, I don't think you're actually, That far off, because when you look at it on the hole and you look at it from behind the goal, it's actually a lot less clear. Here's the ball. Is that the ball there? Yeah, that's the ball there.

[01:34:41] And what happens is the, the attacker bails out of it because they're like, Oh, well, I'm going to get this call or the goalkeeper is going to mishandle it. So I have the opportunity for advantage. And I want a shot at this. And when you look at the shadows, like the sun's going this way, right? So there's a really good chance that the goalkeeper is going to be unsighted as that ball comes down.

[01:35:07] But what you're absolutely right about Anthony is that it's, it's, it's not as super clear as you would expect.

[01:35:28] Okay, so Anthony, I think what fools you is this pivot away by that player, right? And that makes it a lot more complicated. But I still think that you have, just because this player's on the move, if the landing area is here, he doesn't have to be in five meters of clear, clear, clear space. He just has to be the first one there and the initial receiver.

[01:36:00] Yeah, it's not a good show to try to watch. It's a great show to put on your TV as long as you don't look at this. And then it's fine.

[01:36:14] Yeah, happy place.

[01:36:22] So you're thinking of, um, you're thinking of a PC. Yeah. Highly bound off goalkeeper, causing danger. Yeah, but does that mean he's no longer entitled to golf? That that, that he's, just because he, he's like, Oh, I'm going to get this decision, so I'm going to peel away. Does that mean that it's like, Oh, he's no longer the initial receiver?

[01:36:54] Wow. Okay. Everybody thinks the goalkeeper got there first, and that's okay, that's okay, because we've got the angle where you can make a different decision on that.

[01:37:09] You think the rules need to be reviewed, Murph, uh, in that situation. The goalkeeper can legitimately do stuff is to make things dangerous. It's the only way a keeper can legitimately do stuff is to make things dangerous. No. What the goalkeeper can do is be in that space first. Which is what some of you in the comments think happened.

[01:37:29] I disagree. But, I think he, he moves up into the space after he realizes the ball is gonna land there.

[01:37:40] Wow. And, yes. Positioning is an issue. Um, and for everything you think it's a No initial receiver.

[01:37:56] Goalkeeper either just has to stand there and let the guy have five metres to free his face. No. Because if he's, because if he does what everybody in the comments thinks he does, or the other people in the comments think he does, then it's a free hit defence. Easy, because there is no initial receiver. So, it's fine.

[01:38:12] Uh,

[01:38:23] you think the keeper made a safe interception, but happy to be wrong.

[01:38:31] At least somebody's got my back, holy smoke. And you can't cause danger to your own team. Oh, cause the ball's getting played towards that defender. Thank you. Yeah. I hadn't even… Pfft. I don't know, I'm gonna get massacred on this poll.

[01:38:54] Nobody voted for a free to hit defense, so, too bad. If you don't vote, I'm right. Okay. Look at this one then. We're 10

[01:39:30] minutes over time, folks. So I'll try to get this moving. Yeah, that was really interesting.

[01:39:52] Yep, well, mm, that's what people said at Brexit as well, so, look what happened.

[01:40:13] The space in the landing zone is occupied Okay, so is this for this clip or the one with the goalkeeper? Because I don't know if I want to talk about that one anymore.

[01:40:44] Yep, I mean clearly it's a It's a foul by the defender, but is it an intentional foul? Remember that's the heading of this, uh, little segment here is intentional aerial infringements.

[01:41:01] Um, ball does not have to be on the, on the ground to be under control. Intentional breakdown tackle. Okay. So I think it actually, you've kind of mixed that concept up because what you could argue is even though the, um. Attacker here doesn't have the ball on the ground, he has it under control, and therefore, the defender can come in and attempt to attack him.

[01:41:25] Otherwise, it's, it's absolutely a foul, and the qu but, in this case, the player does not have this under control. Yeah,

[01:41:51] well, that's what you get for going against, you know, aerial pool. Thanks for watching! Blue is chasing but almost five minutes received, which wobbles a little, says Jason. Okay.

[01:42:12] Okay, so I'm gonna go to this and what I want you to see is in the moment of the reception

[01:42:27] with all my fancy tech, okay, moment of reception, falls on stick and say, yep, five meters is good. I hope everybody's really impressed with what I'm doing with all this tech today. I worked really hard on it to make sure it worked. Okay, but that is a, that is a block. That is not a playing of the ball in any kind of direction.

[01:42:54] And before he has this chance to take, he's getting, he's, he's put under pressure and he stopped. And this player, I believe this is an intentional breakdown of play.

[01:43:10] Because he sees it all happening. And the way with his body language, the way he backs away is like, I did my job. Play on? I mean…

[01:43:27] The, the whistle's gone. Here, let me, let me… In short supply. Very talented disc, all round sport. Listen to the sounds. Played on the left wing at Coventry. He was actually disappointed the ball reached the backboards.

[01:43:43] Okay, the whistle causes the player, okay? He doesn't do that on his own volition. He doesn't go, oh whoops, I shouldn't have interfered. Please, after you, okay? So it can't be play on. The whistle has already gone in that moment.

[01:44:05] Okay, we don't talk about bad tackles, because that's not descriptive enough. We need to use better language, so we either use recklessness to the result, or in this particular situation, the player, the goalkeeper is calling to him, Ducco! It's Ducco, okay? It's Ducco Tellenkamp, or however you say his name properly, because he's not marking his guy.

[01:44:28] And he's way too far away. So he's getting screamed at by his goalkeeper, go get him. And he's like, Whoa, there's a lot of space out here. I better stop this guy. I want to give my team a chance to reassemble structurally behind this ball. That is an intentional breakdown. That's not even just recklessness to the result.

[01:44:45] That is, I am going to stop this and I'm going to give everybody a chance to get back.

[01:44:54] That's a foul on the defender. Yeah. Boo could definitely be the initial receiver if they'd gotten it cleanly. Uh, well, but. No. No. No. He, he absolutely is trying to stop him from going. He knows he doesn't have it under control and he's been caught. He's been caught out of place and understanding the, the, the context of the play is really important in order to be able to find those.

[01:45:26] Okay.

[01:45:29] Let's see if anybody went there, scroll down. Has anybody voted? Only two of you voted and it's half and half.

[01:45:44] It's not still an aerial. It's not that part. It's that the ball has been received, but it's not under control. It doesn't have to be on the ground under my, you know, interpretations of how we apply the rule. But he doesn't have control of it because he's not that, unfortunately.

[01:46:07] And, yeah, it's okay if you haven't decided about a card or whatever.

[01:46:14] Okay? So it's, you know, there you go. Um, yeah, I, I don't know. I think the movement, uh, of the defender, you know, he, he doesn't have an onus to move out of the way, but he can move in the way of the best lane. So, I think he,

[01:46:38] if we're looking at it, let me see if I put this back up to full speed.

[01:46:47] Let me just double check in case I miss this too.

[01:46:52] He, he's fine. He's not interfering with that play. He doesn't have to be stationary, but he doesn't move in the lane, the same way as there was a play that we talked about on the server, um, recently that caused a lot of debate, and I think quite a few people don't understand how a player who is walking backwards can take up the most advantageous lane towards the circle, and can be, and should be deemed as interfering with the play.

[01:47:26] That's the wrong poll? Okay.

[01:47:30] Oh, that's intentionally playing the ball with the body. Okay. So we've got nine people with a PC. Good. Thank you. Okay. Got it. We're not going to get to that. Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. It's, it's something that I'm, I really work on it's repetition and sometimes I fall into it too, but it's just, it's not a, it's not enough because what kind of information do we give about that, that gives us a principle to call the next one on what is bad, you know?

[01:48:05] Okay. All that kind of stuff. Okay. Right, sorry, I have to re orbit myself because of my camera failure. I don't know what happened, I saw something blink in the corner and then suddenly it was frozen. So, thank goodness I have a built in backup with FaceTime, so it doesn't look as nice, but there you go. Um, yeah, you heard Styx Clash, yeah.

[01:48:34] I mean, it was also, in addition to a 5 meter infringement, it was a… It was a stick obstruction as well, but there you go. Okay, um, all of the things, don't forget,

[01:48:55] here's something. Mission called Control Positioning. Uh, have a look at it, and if you would like to know more, you can come into the Discord server, fhumpires. com forward slash ds, and I will tell you everything you need to know about. It's a course, and there's a lot of people that you should listen to better than me, um, who have taken it and have been achieving some really, really nice results and progress in their own umpiring.

[01:49:26] I believe very strongly in that. Is the body position of the attacker a factor if he's going towards goal or not? No. No. Because we're not assessing the quality of the opportunity available to that player anymore. That's a little bit a few That's like five, 10 years ago that we used to be talking about that, whether it took away a good opportunity, particularly in the circle, if it was a penalty stroke situation, we talked about it in that context.

[01:49:52] We're not doing that anymore, but, um, there you go. But because we're 10 minutes to the top of the hour, this has been a very, very long show. Thanks for sticking in for as long as you did. Uh, I hope it was helpful. I hope it got some good thoughts going in your head. Uh, especially about the, the players running on penalty corners.

[01:50:14] This is something that we're really going to have to start buckling down on, dealing with, and get into the habit. Train yourself as the supporting umpire to be looking for those running lines. Okay. That's going to be very important for us to be able to do well so we can keep players safe in the future and send the right messages to the teams.

[01:50:32] Talk to coaches, talk to players, find out what they're thinking. What are they training? All that kind of stuff. Thanks for joining in. We will see you hopefully in the discord server. And if not, we'll see you next week on What's Up Wednesday and enjoy your hockey weekend coming up.

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