Indoor and Outdoor: Clips From Both Worlds! | #WhatUpWednesday Ep. 148

📅 Feb 21 19.00 GMT
➡️ YouTube

It's a mix of indoor and outdoor today, starting with the PS shoot-out decision that 90% of folks are getting wrong. We're talking through a decision matrix for intentional aerial infringements, another wandering goalkeeper and a few TBC because who doesn’t love a sense of mystery.

Speaking of mystery: who's the new guy? 🤣

See you there!

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⏱ Chapter Markers:
0:00 Chair Dancing
05:04 Topics!
06:06 1. GK Tackle In The Shoot-Out: Zaalhockey U16 Final (Boys)
34:01 2a. Intentional Aerial Infringements?: ARGvBEL (M) Pro League
53:59 2b. Intentional Aerial Infringements? INDvAUS (M) Pro League
01:09:05 3. Dangerous Shot on Goal? ARGvGER (M) Pro League
01:30:08 4. Vantage National Hockey Masters Championship 2024! 🇳🇿

Check out when the next #WhatUpWednesday will go live.

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Transcript

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#WhatUpWednesday Ep. 148

Keely: So, hello! Hello. Welcome to What Up Wednesday!

Mike: Sorry, Keely just broke something, like, last second.

Keely: Hi, like, what's the problem? Of course I'm gonna adjust the microphone and pull out the cable and everything's gonna be fine. Please let us know if you can hear us. Because of said problem. Let's, let's just see.

I'm going to wait. I'm not going to do anything else until

Mike: Oh. I'll, I'll text them on the server. Look at this. Yeah, I'm not, but I'm slouched

Keely: a lot. He's slouched a lot. Okay, um, Marcin, zero. Zero bid on any of that action. Please do not. That is terrible. Okay. We are, we are, we are heard and Keely doing Keely things.

Thank you very much. I'm glad I've finally found my thing, which is breaking, which is breaking stuff, pulling stuff out. Oh my goodness. I think I'm going to move this over here cause I'm reaching way too far. So yeah, we had about 13 different mic setups and now we're back to old school. One mic wired, all that stuff.

I hope it's good. I hope it works out and good to see everybody here. Mike,

Mike: welcome. Hi, thanks for having me. This is, this is all a bit

weird.

Keely: It's so weird. You guys have no idea. I have never shared a physical space with somebody who's been on a live stream with me before. So I'm kind of, yeah, I don't really know what to do.

And every time I look at you, you're so close to me that I can't

Mike: focus. And we can't move further away because we're tied in with the

Keely: headphones. And plus we wouldn't make it on the, on the camera screen. Okay, since everything's working out okay, let's get into our topics, and we'll explain later why it is that Mr.

Mike McDowell is here with me to conduct this amazing Flew all the way from England just for today. Just for this. Just for today. Um, first and last time for, like, what? Forgetting anything right? Yeah, please don't be doing that. Oh, and Niels is here. Good to have you. Good to see you. And good to see everybody whose comments and hellos I already put up on the screen.

There you go. Here are our topics. We have a goalkeeper tackle in the shootout. Martine. Intentional aerial infringements, question mark. Dangerous shot on goal. Do you want to say one? No. Skill session, mise en place management, and, come on, the last one. Goalkeeper outside the circle. Yay! There we go. And, oh yes, and the reason you're here.

The reason I'm here. The Vantage Masters, Vantage Hockey Masters National Tournament. They put all the words in a weird order. I don't

Mike: understand. Does it need the word New Zealand in there as well just to make that clear?

Keely: Yeah, it should. It should. But it's not on the graphic which I have queued up but it's not actually going to show up until I do something.

It's fine. I'm, I'm so like nervous because you're

Mike: here. It's because you're rushed because we've been out for breakfast and we've, you've been rushing around trying to prepare everything. Yeah. And packing to fly to New

Keely: Zealand later. And packing to fly to New Zealand because we're leaving tonight. But we'll leave that to the end because we have important hockey things to do, especially because we are doing this right here.

You're going to press buttons later, by the way. Goalkeeper tackle in the shootout. The pole is up. Please have a look. Oh, that seems really loud.

Sorry if that blew your ears out, everybody. I've turned it down.

Please go and vote in the poll because that helps you formulate some early thoughts. And it's also a very, it's a very useful

Mike: exercise. They do, Martin. I agree.

Keely: Yeah. Martin, you look, you

Mike: look amazing. I still want one of those pink

Keely: shirts. And pink. Isn't that one of those, like, you have to earn it? That's the only way that you can have a pink

Mike: KNHB shirt?

Yeah, I think they have to give them back as well. So, my chances are pretty

Keely: slim. Everybody's your size in the Netherlands. You'd be absolutely fine. Okay. So, gang, this clip has been making All the rounds on all the socials for the last week. And I'm not going to lie. I'm rather disappointed in a lot of the answers that I've been hearing and Mike, you too.

So tell me about what you have sort of, cause you've been actually socials, which I refuse

to

Mike: do. Yeah, the, I think. What has made the rounds is the social media clip filmed from a very low angle on a mobile phone from the far end of the court, where Is that problematic? It's not obvious what's actually happened.

Right. So, um, I think there's been some misleading comments about, uh, the decision that was made based on a view that doesn't represent what actually happened in

Keely: real life. Okay. Okay, so this flattened view has gotten very, um, is, is very distorting in this particular situation, which is very funny. And people are starting to brag about owning KNHB shirts.

Crispy, you're not, this isn't okay. This isn't okay. Oh no, you get to say whatever you want at any point, but, um, there you go. Oh my God. The banter is going to be high today. We're going to have a high banter quotient, I think, as all of this goes. Oh, it's yellow with orange trim. Okay. Crispy. We still don't, nobody likes a braggy McBradster.

We don't like that. We don't like that. Um, yeah, there you go. I don't know what's happening there. Um, but before we do move more into discussion, Kingsley's Cars. Thank you for coming by. If you're brand new, I have just blown the DJ air horn for you. And if you're not brand new, I don't care. I still blew the horn for you.

That's how we work. Okay, there you go. Um, is this Okay, now we're getting production advice from Joel saying it's disconcerting. Wait, okay, so if I look over

Mike: here If we look at each other, we look off screen.

Keely: Shit! I didn't even think of that! Oh my god, you're absolutely right! Um Okay, what if I do this? And this?

And I'm gonna have to do that on every scene. Hi. Hi.

Oh, I should have thought of that. But we were too busy. Like when I look at you Trying to

Mike: listen, hear things. I can't see.

Keely: There you go. So yes, so let's get back to the topic. For all of you at home, you've seen that Uh, the actual umpire in question who is controlling this shootout is in the comments, which is something I absolutely adore because I think it's a very useful exercise for all of us to have to subject ourselves to the discussion and get the practice and detaching our ego right from the results and the comments.

And it gives me an opportunity and all of you the opportunity to protect, to practice, um, being nice. Okay. Saying things in a detached way. So instead of like, Oh, I think that umpire, terrible positioning and blah, blah, blah. No, instead you can say, well, I think that, you know, given where they were, this is what they saw, but maybe that wasn't the best option.

There are different ways to present it, but, um, there you go. So given that you've seen this low, flat, vertical, um, angle on social media that everybody had automatically, um, That they had drawn their conclusions from. What has the feedback on the socials been like?

Mike: I think the implication from that low angle is that there's a stick obstruction by the attacker and therefore the decision to give a stroke is.

Should be nullified by the fact that there was a stick obstruction, and I'm not really sure that that is the case. Well, in fact, I'm not a hundred percent sure that that's not the case as we have been discussing. Um, and the reality is is that the goalkeeper's actions are pretty reckless, um, and he takes the player to ground, and I think the more important thing is even had he been successful with the tackle, the fact that he takes the player to ground in a reckless manner is probably warrant enough for a stroke anyway.

So, it's just been pushing back on stick obstruction occurred before player, before goalkeeper took player to ground, therefore. It shouldn't be a stroke, and I think the logic that people are jumping to on that is that they've, they've seen a potential stick obstruction and then jumped to the conclusion that that negates anything post.

All of the scenes were really

Keely: weird. Yeah, sorry. I clearly, I didn't do the adjustment here. So what Mike's talking about, I'll fix this in a moment, but more important that I get the visuals up for everybody is as the goalkeeper is. You can see that the attacker is going to the left and he has, you know, in, in all fact, then moved his stick over, but we don't know what's going to happen after that because before he's even done anything, he's being wiped by the goalkeeper who has rushed out at a very high speed.

And that's the thing that you miss if you ever look at this as a screenshot. If you look at, um, if you look at it from that flat low angle, you don't see the fact that this goalkeeper is in full sliding mode the entire time. Now, if the goalkeeper had been stationary at the point where the attacker has put their stick over the ball and not moved off in another direction, then you'd say, That's a stick block.

That's a free hit defense. No problem. That's not what happens here. Is it? Go ahead. That was an is it. That was not a rhetorical question.

Mike: I'm used to asking rhetorical questions, so, um, Right. No, that, that isn't. And, um, yeah, we're fixing it, Walter. Sorry. Yep. Just give me a sec. I've lost my train of thought.

Uh, yeah, the recklessness from the goalkeeper. Um, I think the real question comes down to was the goalkeeper actually really? Disadvantaged by the actions of the white player. So, yes, the white player is potentially moving off to the left. Um, he, he, he could be deemed to be covering the ball slightly. But the fact is that he's moving with the ball and the actions of the goalkeeper were not disadvantaged by the actions of the attacker.

And the actions of the goalkeeper probably would have led to a stroke regardless of whether or not he played the ball.

Keely: Cleanly. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. And that's, that's the sort of the biggest point about all of this is that there's one thing to be sequential or to freeze frame and that sort of thing. But Absolutely.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Every foul has to result in disadvantage to the opposition. So if we haven't had an opportunity to see whether the goalkeeper was disadvantaged from making a tackle because he's already in the process of wiping out the player in the slide, well, there's nothing we can do. You know, there is no disadvantage there because he's too busy.

You were, you had mentioned actually, um, A good sort of analogy or a similar situation like out on the field with a potential stick block, but the defender comes in with a big

Mike: Yeah, I think we talked about it in indoor, specifically on the field. Yeah, so this is indoor. Where the actions of the defending player to sweep the ball away is an offense that is not disadvantaged.

They're not disadvantaged by the stick block and the fact that they're already in the action of sweeping the ball away is enough offense that even if there is a stick block, Um, we can, we can give the offense, the first offense, which is the big sweep motion. And in this case, it's similar. The goalkeeper, the goalkeeper's actions are reckless and continue through the act of a potential stick block in this

Keely: occurrence.

So in the, in the sweep tackle example, you can say, well, if there hadn't been a block, they still wouldn't have been tackling legally. Yeah. So they're not disadvantaged. Same thing here. You know. If, if the stick block hadn't occurred, this goalkeeper still is tackling legally. And that has to be the thing that's penalized.

Okay. I'm looking at the comments and there was a lot of things on shirts and not a lot of comments on this. Is everybody feeling good about this analysis? Do you all understand where that comes from? And I mean, you, you saw when I played the full clip, this was a huge decision, huge decision. This was. You know, the last shootout, if the, um, because the, the, the preceding team had missed this goal scores, that wins the shootout, that wins the final of the under 16, you know, Dutch indoor championship.

It's a, it's, it's huge. I'm sure my team was just sitting there going, it's just another call. Yeah. Because he's pretty chill. Yeah.

Mike: He's very chill. I mean, you can tell his body language is, is pretty chill. He's, he's calm all the way through it. I think, you know, I think there's been some questions about whether there's an altercation after the award of the stroke.

To me, I think it's just players being players and a bit of emotion in the moment. I don't think there's anything that really crosses the line and, and Martine kind of calmly walks towards both of them and it's like, come on guys, get on with it. Um,

Keely: yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, that's one of those things that Also, I think gets back to the point of what's actually the important thing here.

And that's the danger of this moment, the danger of that play. If you are that attacker. I mean, I would lose my shit in that moment. I would be very upset because of the risk of injury to me. And I wouldn't have been expecting the goalkeeper all of a sudden at this key moment to just blast out of the gates and, and take me right out.

So you can understand that there's a little bit of a, Oh, you think you're tough? Hey, okay. And, and then just to walk away is fine. But as, as much as I, I talk about, and I do believe that players can. And should control their emotions. That's a controlled emotion because nothing else happens. And, but I don't think the player should be completely emotionless.

So hopefully that makes sense. Um, let's see Joltz. Joltz like fully on board. That's cool. He's a tough critic sometimes. Sean, perfect analysis. Thank you. Good job. It's your first time and you did great. There you go. Martine says, just a note, nobody complained about this decision. Den Bosch accepted it immediately.

Mostly because the goalkeeper fully went for it and went for

Mike: the penalty. And I think this is, that point has also been missing off some of the Other social media analysis that's gone on is that the goalkeeper didn't get up and immediately complain about it. There didn't appear to be anything other than almost acceptance with Yep, I've, I've gone for a high, a high risk, high impact tackle.

It's not come off and we've given away a stroke, so, uh, yeah,

Keely: absolutely. Walter's on board a hundred times out of a hundred, but what about 101 times? Is it still 101 times out of 101 times? That's what I'm. I'm curious. I'm curious. But yeah, he's on board with that penalty stroke. One thing that, um, so I was really privileged to have the opportunity to debrief Martina on this game.

And we went through the whole thing, and let me tell you, it was a joy. Uh, I, as a coach, it is so much fun to see somebody that you've been working with. Um, and I mean, Martine's pretty self starting. He hasn't had a ton of work with me, but to, to see him doing such an amazing job on this game and clearly enjoying it and seeing the confidence of the players in him and his colleague throughout the game was just so great to see the question that Martine had for me for discussion, which we can get into is, would you?

Yellow card this goalkeeper because remember in shootouts, there are no green cards. There are only yellow cards. There. Yeah. Which I think lends yourself to understanding the severity of what that card means. Do you wanna go through what it means in a shootout when a goalkeeper gets yellow carded?

Mike: Yeah.

I mean, it's a very big thing in a shootout because the only, the, the list of eligible players to replace the goalkeeper are only people that are already involved in the shootout. So it'll, it would have to be one of the attacking players from their team that then gets. Dressed up as a goalkeeper and can defend a shootout as the goalkeeper or and or defend in this case the penalty stroke.

Keely: Yeah, absolutely. And accordingly, I think I've only seen one instance in international play where I thought a goalkeeper did something that was on this level that was a very physically dangerous sliding wipeout. And was it, I can't remember if it was the pro league finals or it was a pro league, it was in, in the Netherlands and it was Argentina, Australia and Belen Suchi came out and wiped Jodie Kenny, like just the ball.

It was, it was a drag to the right. Jodi took and Suchi completely missed the ball, like just nowhere near. She was miles behind it and she had gone straight ahead and just clocked Jodi and Jodi fell on her shoulder and broke her collarbone. And that was one of the last injuries of her career. And in that moment, the umpire did not award a yellow card and.

I think part of that, a huge part of that, was the effect that it has on this shootout situation and thinking that it, it's in essence giving a red because you're permanently suspending them for the rest of the shootout and there's not another goalkeeper that gets to

Mike: step in. It's, I mean, it's significantly harsher than giving a yellow or even a red card to a goalkeeper in open play because, At that, maybe not at this level, potentially at this level, but certainly at international level, they're gonna have another goalkeeper sat on the bench.

And that goalkeeper comes in and they lose a field player. This is a completely different scenario. You've now got a field player acting as a goalkeeper for the rest of the shootout. Yeah.

Keely: Yeah. Which is huge. Uh, few more comments here, Luke. Although the attacker might be blocking the keeper's actions, taking the goalkeeper to ground greatly at weigh and advantage, the attacker potentially gains penalty stroke for sure and would be considering.

Yep. Hence our discussion. God, it's like I know that people are going to say stuff. Um, And McCartney, if the goalkeeper had stopped ahead of the player, it would warrant a discussion. Yes, I absolutely agree. But we don't know whether that player would have stopped with one foot, like just taking that one step with their right foot planted and then spun off, which is a completely legal, normal, We don't know whether the attacker was backing into the goalkeeper's space.

Cause he

Mike: wasn't, he wasn't there long enough. He wasn't vertical long

Keely: enough. Exactly. Exactly. We have all like no idea whatsoever. Tom, the goalkeeper just walks back. Yeah, exactly. And Dave, sorry, you've never done it, nor can you briefly explain, um, what the main circle, the dotted line differences are. So this is a specific.

that has multiple lines on it in this particular location. So if you were watching Dave, a, um, for example, the European indoor club championships last week in Vienna, SV Armitage had a, uh, brand new gym set up with an indoor specific floor. And the only markings on the floor were the. Circle, the three meter dotted line, the penalty stroke mark, the center line.

I mean, it was, it's just pristine. It's gorgeous. But most of us have to umpire indoor on multipurpose pitches. So in this case, um, let's see if I can go back to this just so I can scribble because why go through this, all this work if I don't actually, there we go. So in this case, what we're looking at, Dave is.

This dotted line is actually the edge of the circle, the nine meter circle. And this line has nothing to do with anything. This is like. Netball, basketball, I don't know, something handball, something something, um, this line, don't know what it is either. That's handball, I think. Handball, there you go. There you go.

See, this, don't ask me hard questions, Dave, I have no idea. So yeah, that's, that's basically what it is. And when you go into these competitions, if you're going into a league or a tournament, it's really important to get yourself situated with the pitch. That's in front of you. Like you've probably been in some nightmare.

Mike: Yeah. There's, there's, there's certainly some multi sport halls in England that the lines are particularly

Keely: confusing. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, we have a great gym here in Calgary. We have. The maximum size, it's not even just a full size indoor court. It is the maximum width, the maximum length. Like it's so much fun to play and umpire on because the pace, everything's great.

Anyway, but there are markings everywhere and you just, you get used to it after a while, you just screen all the rest out, don't you? And yeah, it's fine, but it's, yeah, it's a, it's a bit of a thing. Um, let's see, we'll go back to the main screen to see any more comments here. Kia ora. Thank you. Kia ora for Stefan.

I've been practicing my pronunciation of my basic New Zealand, uh, Maori terms, which isn't very good. Uh, defending the stroke can be done by any player, uh, from the team though. Not only the shootout players. If your regulations are different, Martine, that's, that's fine, but that's not what the regulations are for FH competitions or in

Mike: your experience.

Maybe, can't remember. Might

Keely: have misspoken on that, but yeah. In FH competitions, you, it has to be from the, the, in outdoor, the five attackers who have been, uh, taking the shootout. And then, uh, not, you can't bring in the substitute goalkeeper. Because then what do you do? Who gets

Mike: Is that right for the goal, for the stroke specifically?

Oh, for the stroke, sorry. Because, yeah, because any player can take the stroke. Yes. So, yeah. Yes, I think the sub goalkeeper can defend it, but then for the shootouts again, it's back to the kickers.

Keely: Mmm, drop! I'm just gonna, feel free to push any of the sound effect buttons,

any

Mike: type you want. No, I will break it and we'll

Keely: go on.

No, you won't, you won't break it. Squirrel! There you go, you can just go ahead. There's a wide selection here that I usually ignore. Anyway, I'm sorry Martine, I am distracted because I'm like trying to, you know, trying to do new things, and it's hard. But you're absolutely right, defending the stroke. But you can't defend the shootout.

Mike: Yeah, yeah. I misspoke when I said the stroke as well. That was my bad.

Keely: No, no, no. I'm sure I made the mistake. It's my mistake, not yours. There you go. Anyway, Ian, it puts a lot more pressure on you when you only have one umpire officiating the shootout. Wow! How can you do that with one person? You can't time, you can't make sure the balls cross the line, and you can't call all the fouls all at the same time.

Who would, who would make you do that? Yeah. No, no, no. At the very least, you gotta have somebody else. Timing it, and then, yeah, just make somebody else stand on the, uh, just, just off the back line there.

Make somebody else, like, literally pull somebody from the stands. And be like,

Mike: just tell me, has it

Keely: crossed the line before I blow my whistle. It's an important job that one. Very important job. There you go. Um, if that penalty stroke would have been missed, it would have been one hell of a mess. Yes, absolutely.

So. Right. We don't even want to think about it. Uh, let's see. Crispy. Austrian keeper did it against Wales in World League Round 1 back in 2011, you think. Korper went and goal and saved the

Mike: stroke. Is there anything that man can't do?

Keely: Apparently, um. I don't think he can un retire, because I don't think he's un retired yet.

Um, that is really, that is really interesting. Now 2011, had we gotten rid of the kicking

Mike: back rules yet? No. No. That was like 2016.

Keely: So that makes a big difference. So Corporate would have been able to go in, he would have been able to put a helmet on, and a different colored shirt, and he would have been able to use goalkeeping privileges in order to keep that ball up.

Now, we don't have that. So either you go in as a goalkeeper, With all of the gear, or you defend as a field player, which is another option. A player can just go in and just be like, Oh, this is a one on one tackling situation. And, I believe, they would be able to intentionally play the ball off the back line.

Because the defender of the shootout is entitled to do that. So you have an extra tool in your arsenal to

Mike: do that. I think Chris was talking about a stroke though, so he saved the stroke.

Keely: Right. I'm good at reading today. Have you noticed that? This is very humbling, everybody. Jolt, yeah, clearly marked for basketball as well.

Yeah. All the sports, all the sports. So don't worry about it, Dave. It's one of those things that, I've struggled with that. There've been times where I've looked at footage and said, they're not even inside the circle and they're raising the ball and shooting like. And then I figured out, um, yes, and there are indoor halls that don't even have enough, uh, runoff to allow for the full depth of the net and so, or for the goal.

And so the goal is actually in the,

that's terrible. And yes, you meant the right thing, Martine. I misinterpreted, no,

Mike: I. I'm here, I can take some of the full.

Keely: Can you? Okay, there you go. I'm giving it a go. Thanks, Stefan. He's like, we've got to keep up her morale. She's beating herself up over this. Okay,

Mike: that was awesome. Well, she's going to have to do it in person to actual New Zealanders tomorrow.

Well, no, two

Keely: days time. In two days time, I know. Which is going to be like three days time because of the extra day in the air. Basically, but Yeah, I don't even want to think about that. I don't want to think about that. Um, oh and you have further to fall. Well, that's why I have to keep him like where he is.

I only just like lean over and I'm on the ground. There you go. Okay. Uh, oh, pole and hopefully I've got that. I set these. Oh, I didn't set these up. Should we, should we, should we even bother looking at the pole? Or should I just pretend? Somebody tell me what the pole says. I can look at the pole pole. Yeah, that's the right way to do things.

I don't even have Discord open on, on my desktop. And while Mike's doing that, you can tell us. Thank you very much. Niels is stepping right back into his moderator role and adding that. So what do we have? We have a penalty stroke with 12 of you, and one of you have voted for the free hit defense. Or shootout complete, whichever the one is.

And Luke was considering the yellow card. Yep. And I would consider it too. And then I wouldn't give it. I just, I just wouldn't. It would, I would really want to, to see, I'd really not want that goalkeeper to take any other part in the competition because what they did was so dangerous or could cause more problems.

Right? Like red cart type issues. Like this person cannot be allowed to play anymore because they're bad news. Like that's how serious it is. So there you go. Um, yeah, I don't, I, Shane, I think you're being awfully optimistic. Why can't I get up there? No, there we go. Um, you'll have me pronouncing Terea Maori like a local.

Mike: I'm not even going to attempt it. He's

Keely: not going to. There you go. And thank you, 85 percent for the penalty stroke. I agree. There you go. Oh, I would love to meet Bentley Stefan, so please bring Bentley out and, uh, stop saying things that I don't understand. What's a pipiha? I, I mean, you think it might be impressive, but I'm already terrified, so I am going to ixnay anything that I do not understand.

Okay, let's move on to our next topic since we did so well on that one and it only took us 37 minutes. Here we go. Intentional aerial infringements? Maybe? I don't know. Here's our first scenario. You get to watch this one with me.

No, no, you're there.

I know, Marty, I know. I'm not doing it for this scene, though. It's a lot of work for just Yes, it's a new scene. See, Tom knows.

No. See, I'm talking to you by looking over here.

There's a lot of replays because the video There's a lot of angles. Yeah, there are a lot of angles, which is nice. It's good to see them all. Now I've watched this several times because I edited up this video. This is Mike's first time seeing this. Apart from live. Oh, were you in the watch party? I don't remember these things.

Don't ask me.

Oops.

Rachel, It's a terrible life when you don't have gifts available, isn't it? It's just awful. So at this point, you might all be thinking, Wow, this is taking a long time to get to a decision. Well, we're about to find out. I guess I could have edited out a few of these reps. Maybe. But it's dramatic. It's good drama.

Rachel is a gif in the server. Is what's happening. Do you have a decision ready? I do. Okay.

You don't get, oh yeah, you can say no advice possible if you want. Um, what do you think? Do you feel like you've seen enough with these replays that you can?

So yeah, that's what, that's what ended up happening on the day is that, uh, Ben, Ben Peters was the, the VU there. And I respect the decision to say, look, I, I'm really not sure at the outset of the aerial where the players were, which is fine, but what do you think?

Mike: I think it's tough, I agree it's tough because there isn't an angle that gives you, that massively gives you the overall view.

I do think there was a shot, I think from behind the aerial, as the ball goes, and I think there's two or three metres between the player and the goalkeeper and the ball is in the air and the goalkeeper is coming from behind, which to me says he knows the player is there and he continues to go into that space.

Therefore making, you know, if he gets in front of the player before the ball arrives and intercepts, I think we're fine. Yeah. Maybe, not because he's come from behind, but I think the fact that he comes up right over the top of the player. Yeah. I think there's enough, enough separation in the video that I think you should probably, you could have, you could have given a stroke for this.

Yeah. But I can understand why Ben hasn't, because there isn't anything that's absolutely definitive.

Keely: Yeah. Um, I guess part of the analysis is that the sort of the coaching that we're given on deciding an aerial is that when the aerial is 20 meters away from its receiving point, you make a decision as to who the initial receiver is.

So there doesn't have to be an initial receiver. Like you don't make the decision right at the launch point. You make the decision as the ball is in the air and approximately, you know, as the crow flies 20 meters away, and then that's when you make determinations on who is then an interceptor, who is within playing distance, all that sort of thing.

So, um, so with that said, I actually feel like we do have enough.

Mike: Yeah. Having thought about it, I actually think that

for me a PC in this scenario is only where the defending player would potentially have no knowledge of an attacking player being in the space to receive the ball. So I actually think the only two viable options here would be stroke or free hit defence for there being no clear receiver. So if you're basically saying the goalkeeper is close enough when the ball is 20 metres away for it to be.

No clear receiver, then we could change the decision to free hit defense. So actually, I'm probably going to change my mind on that and say probably firm agreement that stroke is the right decision.

Keely: I do that all the time on the show. I just pretend that I haven't changed my mind. But it goes back to something that we were talking about the server, and I thought you had a really nice sort of analysis matrix that we talked about to try to determine whether an infringement is legal.

Should be considered intentional or requisite as to the result, or unintentional, because this is a big focus area, this, you know, for, for every umpire who's dealing with aerials at, or on a regular basis, and despite the Dutch guidelines or regulations or briefings, whatever it is, telling them that they're not allowed to give penalty strokes for this, that will change, because that's bullshit, so That's not, that's not going to stay around for very long, because otherwise defenders are going to be like, Oh, I'm going to break this down every time.

Absolutely. There's a reason why penalties exist. But anyway, that said, it's, it's something that we really need to have a So it's a nice step by step process or signposts. So for example, when I talk about when an interception is possibly going to be successful, that almost only occurs when the interceptor is coming from an angle to the trajectory of the ball.

So if they're coming from behind the ball or if they're coming from in front of the ball. And they're all on the same line, is it? It's, they're very unlikely to be able to intercept outside of playing distance and safely. Whereas, and this one's a little, you know, a little bit different because, um, Uh, is it, is it Van Ash?

Is this Argentina, Belgium? I forgot. Anyway, the goalkeeper is coming a little bit at an angle, but he really is coming from essentially behind the ball. And you can see that because of the way he is reaching over the, um, the receiving attacker. So that's a nice little. You know, a nice little tip, hot tip, if you look for this, you're probably going to get the call right.

And so you had a matrix to sort of figure that out. Do you want to lead us, lead us through it? Yeah,

Mike: I did what any sensible umpire did and made a spreadsheet. Um, I think ultimately for, for, for non intercepts, because let's take intercepts out of the equation in this. I don't think we're talking about this being a potential intercept situation.

The reality is it comes down to the knowledge about whether the defender should know that there is an attacker who is the clear receiver. So, you're then making an estimation as to whether they are deliberately entering the playing distance of that attacker, because they have knowledge that that attacker is there, or whether they are non deliberately entering.

The space of that attacker, because they have, they would have no knowledge, because the aerial's going over their head, they're backing up, for example, and they're backing into the space of a player that they wouldn't necessarily know is there. And that, for me, is one of the definitive pieces around intentionality or not, or reckless of the result, that would lead to the harsher penalty of a stroke in the circle, or a PC in the 23.

Right. Um, having said that, when you do start adding intercepts in on top of that, again, you are, you've got players who are deliberately entering the space, but if they're remaining outside of playing distance and they're doing, doing so in a safe manner, then we're looking at whether the intercept is successful or not to decide whether or not it's then play on if the intercept is successful or a non deliberate offence because although they've They deliberately end, end to the five meters, they've stayed outside of playing distance and they miss the ball, say, and then that's causing a disadvantage to the initial receiver.

So then we're looking at free hit or penalty corner, depending on the location of the ball. Yeah.

Keely: Absolutely. You can't accidentally intercept the ball, right? Like it's not, you're, you are, you are moving with intention. You know, the ball is falling into a particular space and you are cutting off that pass before it re reaches the initial receiver.

That that can't be an

Mike: accident. And I think you have to have reckless to the results. I think for it to be an intercept attempt or to be considered an intercept attempt, you have to have knowledge that it's going to someone else. Yes. I think if neither, if, if you as the, as the defending player, whichever way you wanna look at it, if, if there's two players who are both looking at the ball.

Mm-Hmm. and one. Is in front of the other one. I wouldn't necessarily consider that an intercept attempt. Because I think there has to be knowledge of the player attempting the intercept. Yeah. That there is another player that they have to stay out of the playing distance of. And therefore, if they do enter that playing distance space, I think we very much do have to be in the, it's an intentional offense at that point.

Because you knew what you were trying to do. You were trying to get to the ball and you failed to do so safely and stay outside of playing distance. Yeah.

Keely: So, um, yeah, Raqqa, this is a really good, a good pickup, good memory. You're absolutely right. Pakistan was, uh, called for an intentional, the Pakistan goalkeeper for an intentional infringement of, uh, the five meter area, penalty, penalty stroke given, uh, Um, the whole thing, I think it was even against Canada.

Mike: I think it was against Canada. Yeah.

Keely: I remember the decision. And, and we, we reviewed it on WhatUpWednesday. So as I always threaten, I'm going to put a little card and a link to that clip and then I'm going to forget, but Hey, I'm going to say it out loud. Maybe somebody else will do it for me. Who knows?

You're, you're all out there not doing anything with your, with your time. Like just. Just, just give a girl a hand, you know, there you go. Um, let's see, Stefan, this isn't, this is not a dig cause it's hard, but how many angles do we think is needed to help make a decision? I totally, you know, we could need one angle as long as it's the correct one.

It's as long as it's the angle that, that, that gives you that. The mystery is that if you've watched as much hockey as I have, Mike has, that you start to realize that, and it's happened to me several times on watch parties. Where I'll see three angles and I'm like, yeah, not a foot, not a foot, not a foot.

Oh Fourth angle. There's the foot and you don't know what you don't know until you're proven to be wrong. Yeah, so I can't tell you I can't tell you it could be it could be anything Uh, Martine, what you're wondering, the referral wasn't really for whether the attacker was the initial receiver, but more whether the interpretation was to deem it unintentional.

Um, and since the on field decision was a PC, shouldn't the correct call be a penalty stroke anyway? Yeah, I mean, that's, that's what I think, you know, Mike and I are essentially arguing. And we're, you know, from, from what we've seen at the distances, I think it's. It's, I think it's clear enough that you, you see enough to see that, you know, he's in full control of it.

He knows that the player is there and he's coming second. And even if Keenan has spent the first, I don't know, 10 meters or 15, however long this area, this isn't an especially long aerial. It's probably what 30 meters, 35 meters. So for the first 10 meters, unless Keenan is backing up at. You know, during that last 20 meters to back into the goalkeeper's space, then it's, I mean, to me, I think you have enough.

And even in that case, it's the actions, it's, it's the goalkeeper seeing that the guy's in front of them. So yeah, I see what we're sort of saying here. Um, Here's the slight issue, the FH guidance referring to the last 20 meters of flight. No question if there's a clear receiver from that point, but either way, it's a deliberate action.

Yeah. So I think Mikey just, um, said more concisely what I just sort of mumbled through, but there you go. Yes, Mr. Diver, good to see y'all. Um, Yes, we're always gonna I'm always gonna make sure to delay. It's really nice of me, isn't it? It's not poor time

Mike: management. Stream for long enough that people

Keely: can eventually turn up.

Exactly. Exactly. Keep the doors open. Uh, Crispy question is whether with the ball that high in its flight, which is something that a lot of the teams are starting to get away from because it's often not successful, um, when it's that high in its flight, when arriving in the area occupied by the players, do you deem them likely to be, to receive the ball?

As intention alone, isn't a penalty stroke. Can you help me out with that? You don't understand it either. Okay. It's probably a smart question, Crispy, but I am a little confused because we don't We don't need to apply intentionality to receiving the ball. It's not an intentional receiver. It's not an intended receiver.

It's the initial receiver. So they may not have a fricking clue that the ball's being passed to them, but if they are the player who is under the ball, they are deemed the initial receiver. So I don't think we want to mix the language up like that and get the wrong concept applied. Does that make sense?

Maybe? Stefan, given the, uh, the idea of five meters for safety and the goalkeepers wearing the gear they do, if they are coming from behind the ball, is being outside playing distance okay because of the issue of trying to defend the

Mike: goal? As in, if they're attempting to make an intercept, but coming from behind, i.

e. the player they're intercepting doesn't know that they're coming, because, because we've been briefed that that That should not be allowed, i. e. if a player tries to come from behind, that's unsafe, that's, that falls into the, it's not a, it's an unsafe intercept attempt. Yeah. I guess that's what Stefan's asking, is because he's trying to defend the goal, do you give them more leeway?

No.

Keely: I, I'm, I'm trying, I'm trying to think of how, because we're not, Um, they don't get to act more dangerously just because they're defending the goal. Like you wouldn't expect as a player, like this is different from a goalkeeper sliding. For example, we expect goalkeepers to go to ground. We expect them to use their bodies to play the ball.

So as attackers, if we dribble straight at a goalkeeper and a goalkeeper is coming towards us, they're going to take us out. And that's on us as an attacker, because we need to go around them. Because they're allowed to do that thing that they're doing. I don't, I don't see the parallel here. I don't, I don't know if I'd be able to apply one because just because we know that the goalkeeper is starting from behind us because they're defending a goal that is behind us doesn't mean that they should then be able to get within my playing distance with and, and unsafely attempt to do that thing.

Um, they also have big blockers and helmets and, you know, that have sharp edges on them. They, I, I wouldn't expect, I wouldn't expect differently. Yeah. Does that, I don't know if that answered that very well, but there you go. And for Rachel, given the attack, the angles, the goalkeeper must've known the attacker was there.

Otherwise he would've let it go off the back line. Yeah, there you go. Um, jolt is also the point that you're not permitted to move your stick above the head of another player. Yeah, that, that is, that is an interesting angle I hadn't

Mike: really thought of. Yeah, I think we kind of gloss over that a little bit with We do.

Aerials. We do.

Keely: Godders is here! Uh, Godders, you missed us dancing. Yeah.

Mike: I emulated

Keely: you goddess. He was excellent. He was amazing. I've been trying not to touch my hair at all. It's not working.

Okay, so to be a penalty stroke, it has to be, sorry, I'm struggling to, to bring up the comments, uh, has to be an intentional foul on a player in possession or likely to receive the ball. Therefore, with the top, the player at the, um, the ball still at the top of the stick height, would you consider them likely to receive it?

Yeah, if they're the initial receiver, they are like a receiver that that's exactly the definition. I'm okay with that. Okay, good. Uh, we have a second, we have a second globe to see if we are going to be internally consistent with all this. So have a look at this one. This is not a penalty stroke penalty corner decision, but a free hit slash.

There will be a lot of replays, don't worry. Mike's like, oh my god, I can't see it!

This is where you get to do more intercepting things.

Potentially.

Somebody's gonna mention it, so I better move it.

Alright!

Mike: You need to swap us over again. Okay, okay.

Keely: Okay, smartass. God!

Mike: I'm just pre empting everyone else.

Keely: Yeah. Walter's gonna be like, hey! Right, we're swapped. Okay friends, what do we think? So now you get to really get into your matrix there, don't you? Yeah,

Mike: so I actually agree with, I agree with the analysis of the video umpire in this case, but I don't necessarily agree with the outcome.

Okay. As in, I think, I think what's been communicated in that it's an unsafe interception The reason it's unsafe is that that player is within the playing distance of the initial receiver. Okay. And that to me is, we've talked about for it to be an intercept attempt, the player, there must be knowledge of there being an initial receiver, so that to me determines intentionality of entering the five meter space originally.

And if you then go within playing distance, Mm hmm. That's no longer an intercept attempt because you're actually breaking play down, I think, at that point. If the player had stayed outside of the playing distance and tipped the ball off their stick, say, unsafely, that is just a failed intercept. I think we would consider that unintentional.

But, to me, I think the difference between that player running in front to intercept Picking the ball cleanly as they do, but, but basically being half a metre away from the attacker is no different to them just running in, standing half a metre away and stopping the ball in space, which we would consider a breakdown.

Right. I think because he's picked the ball cleanly and gone off with the ball, it's skewed the thinking towards they've done something that appears to be safe. Yeah. Therefore It's an offense, but it's not a breakdown. Yeah. But I think it's the equivalent of a breakdown.

Keely: Yeah. Because he is within playing distance.

Because he's within playing distance because he's tried an interception that he has to know. This is within playing distance and I'm gonna be reckless as to whether I'm breaking down play because I know I can't succeed at this legally.

Mike: I know I can't succeed without going into the playing distance of the other player.

Exactly. Which to me implies. It's a breakdown and therefore should have been a PC. Well, I think probably should have been a PC, yeah.

Keely: Yeah. Oh, that's a good one. Okay. Um, oh, Stefan's coming back on a previous question which I know I'm absolutely going to have no memory of. Um, you mean to be Behind and stop the playing distance to allow the receiver to control the ball.

Well, Stefan, there's a lot of conversations going on about what a defender can do, how close they can be, what five meters is, and what is actually disadvantageous in a lot of different situations. And so I'm not sure I want to get into that whole debate. We

Mike: can get into it when you see him in person.

Yeah.

Keely: Yeah, let's do it like that because otherwise we're never going to finish this, this clip, but, but there you go. Um, if I realize I won't make it, can I stop short of playing distance or must you retire five meters? Well, I mean, realistically, I think we know that we've, we've seen players start to come and then realize, oh shit, I'm doing it wrong.

And then they, they might take a step back if they have time or if they simply stop. I've seen many times, in fact, most times umpires playing advantage or simply playing on two very different things. Yeah, but they, they'll do it either way because the player who is approached and stopped is often. kind of screwed because now there their weights on their heels.

They're, they're thinking about the thing that they shouldn't have done. And instead of, you know, sort of defending properly, their teammates are at a disadvantage because that players isn't doing what is expected of them in that moment. And all that kind of stuff. So it's often an advantage situation that can get

Mike: played.

It's also very easy for people to get very ball focused in an area goes up and you go, I need to get there. And then you're like, I'm not going to get there. I'm just going to stop. But the player brings the ball down. They pass the ball off and we don't need to interfere. We don't need to get involved and be like, Oh, there's an offense there because there's no disadvantage.

The ball stayed in play. The receiver has taken it down. And the The defending player has realized, I'm not going to get that. I'm just going to stop, but I don't have time to back away because everything's happening so quickly.

Keely: Yes, exactly. Exactly. The lack of time I think is the big, is the big part is that by the time that they've realized that they should not be within that five meters, they probably don't have time to back up.

And as an umpire, you're just, you need to take that into account. That's just reality. So, you don't, you don't, and you don't have to penalize them unless it really does disadvantage the attacker. So, there you go. Godders is very sad that he missed the dancing. Yeah, I guess you're just going to have to watch the replay, Godders.

I'm just saying. Hey, Martin. What about the attacker moving back into the goalkeeper space to receive? What do you think?

Mike: I think there's enough separation. I think, from what we said, there's enough separation early enough within the flight of the aerial. To say that we would consider the attacker to be the initial receiver, and so therefore, once we've made that estimation, it's then about what the players do around that person.

If you're going to say that actually the players were too close because the attacker is moving backwards and the goalkeeper is moving forwards, You could, you could well say that, and we could say that therefore it's a free hit defense. Yeah. I think in that case, yes, we can't see the flight of the ball perfectly, but I think looking at the path the ball's taken from the attacker's stick, I'm pretty okay with the attacker being underneath the flight of the ball and the goalkeeper moving in.

If, if the attacker has to move one step backwards to be comfortable with the receipt, we still have to allow them to have that. Receipt and move. It's not like they have to stay stationary as soon as we've determined they are the initial receiver. But yeah, I can see the point Martin. I just, in this case, I think he doesn't do enough.

He's not moving enough for me to warrant. Yeah. Changing

Keely: the decision. Exactly. Yeah. What, what that movement would change is whether that attacker is the initial receiver or not, you know, basically. So, um, then that changes the whole situation in that last clip, then it's no longer a penalty corner. It's a free defense.

So, um, they weren't even, you know, that wasn't, I mean, who knows, maybe the opposing, the defending team could have come and said, no, no, no, that's definitely not a, but they didn't even. Yeah, they were like, whew, just a penalty corner. Okay, we'll take that one. You know, so I yeah, I I think I don't think there was any question amongst the players in that moment as to who the initial receiver was and whether that had been pulled.

So, but Yeah, Martin's just playing games with us apparently. Um, Um, thank you. And I'm sorry. Because clearly That was quite a long time ago. Yeah, that was a long time ago. So there you go. Uh, have a good one, Stefan. Okay. And for you, Luke, this is a PC. Because the interception is unsafe because the player is with him.

Okay. And I guess, you know, now that you've heard Mike's

So just the fact that the interception is within playing distance and the unsafe, that's not enough because otherwise that is always every intercept. Like there just has to be like, let's make sure we're precise about the language in order to trigger that recklessness to breaking down the play. So there you go.

Um, Mike just, McCartney just says it's a PC. He's just, it's a PC. There you go. Um, within playing distance was the critical phrase missing from the video umpire, uh, reply. Yeah. And I think, I think Cindy did a really good job with, you know, what she wanted to convey and, and understand. But there you go. Uh, I know.

Isn't it gross? Yeah. Mike is being way too good. It's going to be terrible next week. You're all going to be like, where's Mike? You know, there you go. I'll be in the pub. Um, really?

Mike: At 8am.

Keely: Uh, Rock's question here. Would you consider playing distance to be a stick length away from a player? Um, I'm going to take first stab at it because otherwise everybody's going to think Mike's the smart one of the two of us.

For me, playing distance has everything to do with where the ball is coming from and where the players are in, you know, vis a vis to each other. So playing distance could be a stick length or it could be something different depending on all of the different angles. Because if it was a distance, then they would say you can't come within a stick length.

Right? That's a lot easier than some nebulous phrase, playing distance. So for example, when an aerial is coming in at a low trajectory to an initial receiver and. They have a defender on their back. They could still be, despite the fact that it's two players who are within two, three meters of each other, they could still be absolutely clearly the initial receiver because at the lowness of that ball and the way it's coming in to the reception, there's only one player who's going to be receiving it and they have position on them.

So that's an example I use very often to explain the difference between drawing a disc on the ground. And using absolute measures or understanding that everything changes because the ball moves in mysterious ways around the pitch and anything can happen with that. So. Did you want to add to that at all?

Mike: Just to say I think it is tough. I think the, probably the rule of thumb, well there's been a couple of rules of thumb. There's been, there's been, it's about two meters has been thrown about by maybe that Irish aerials video talked about that kind of rule of thumb. I think the other thing about playing distance is think about how, think about what we allow on a penalty stroke which in essence we're saying that's playing distance so a step and being able to touch the ball with a stick.

So it's. It's in that sort of, that sort of one and a half to two meters area, but I think as Keely said, it does depend where the aerial is coming from and the flight of the aerial, and I think you just have to judge, I think you just have to judge on safety more than anything else.

Keely: Yeah, yeah, which change, which, which changes as to height, speed, you know, angle, if you're standing right next to the person who is, Uh, who could be within playing distance, or they're behind you, or they're in front of you.

Like it's, it's all very, very, very different. Uh, so Joel talking about this scenario now in front of us. Uh, the Indian player was the Keely, the initial receiver. They stopped their movement to avoid a collision due to the interception. And that's a penalty corner for you and a penalty corner for Godders as well.

Scanned by the defender would have recognized the receiver. Breakdown. Okay. Good stuff everybody. I think, I think we can move on. Um, polls, did you want to check the polls? I can check the poll again. Check the polls

because, because we do care about your opinions. We just don't know what they are. Okay. So on the last one, eight of you were going for the PC and, um, one of you remained with the, um, free hit attack. Somebody said a free hit defense. Let's talk more about this. At another time, um, for, for the Argentina, Belgium, it was 16 of you or 94%.

That's pretty good going for the penalty strokes. So I can understand. And again, I, I do just want to cave out with that last situation and make sure we do all appreciate that. We don't know what we don't know. We don't know if really there could have been another angle, perhaps that Ben was seeing that we weren't seeing at home that threw some real ambiguity into it.

And then he was like, well, wait, from this angle, it does. And this angle, it doesn't. And then, yeah, so we have to respect that. And, and, you know, in the actual, uh, in the actual situation. So there you go. All right. I, I, do you want to do this one? What's this one? Um, well, when I press the right button.

Mike: What's I

Keely: don't?

Dangerous shot on goal.

I turned it down.

Can you see that well enough? Yeah. Oh, look, that's a lot easier

Mike: So we're not squinting

That's weird

Keely: Okay, so a very lengthy review on this and I think No, I'm losing battery in the teleprompter. That's okay. It's not really helping us out anyway. It's too far away. Can't see a thing. Um, yeah, we were just laughing. I was just giving, uh, Mike the glasses, the, the sacred glasses of streaming ness so that he could see whether he wanted to launch his own channel.

He has said no. So there you go. So funny. Anyway, sorry I missed your, your comments, uh, there on the last one, but. There you go. Um, Scott, I, I wonder if this is on the same one. I've always gone to, uh, consider expectations when looking at danger. E. g. if you're standing on the goal line, then you shouldn't be surprised by a shot.

That, that's something that you consider. Okay, that'll be interesting because we will apply that to this situation and see whether it's there. Yeah, look, I, I've, have I not informed you that I have to change this on every scene? Okay. God, people, you are so harsh on us. Okay. So this one I wanted to bring out because for me, it was an example.

And what I might do is just do this. And so this is real time. This is real time going. And When you see it in real time once, or you see it many times in real time, let's, you know, keep looking at it, that ball's moving really fast. We have now just watched a whole sequence of it being in slow mo and playing.

Um, over and over again in slow motion at different angles. So I first take a little bit of umbrage to any statement that says, Oh, well, they didn't immediately move. It's like, yeah, because three frames later he moved, which is a reasonable reflex of time that any human being is going to try to get out of the way of the ball.

Okay. So that's, that's one thing. Um, let's see what Matt has to say and then. Um, so the attacker can make a deflection and the defender chose not to try to pick the goal. It's a goal for you. So you think he, he like chose not to play the ball that was whizzing by his hip and stuff. What do you, okay. What do you think Mike?

Cause I'm, I definitely had a opinion in the moment and then. Didn't really change my mind after I saw it at the moment.

Mike: I think it, it obviously comes down to what we're defining as legitimate evasive action. And, having been a defender, I think I'd be pretty frustrated if this was given as a goal against me.

Because, I think, he's not standing in a position where there's an expectation of he's just defending the space of the goal, and therefore You are putting yourself in a potentially dangerous position. He's prevent, he's trying to prevent a cross from going to the player, player or players on the file post and

it passes, as you said, it passes past him pretty quickly. Um, I think he is trying to half make a play at the ball, but. Um, I think self preservation is taken in there and I think the evasive action is legitimate.

Keely: Yeah. Getting back to Scott's point, I totally agree if you're standing on the goal line you shouldn't be surprised by a shot, but he's not just, he's not standing on the goal line, that ball is not going into the

Mike: goal.

I think if the ball is going, if that shot, if that's a shot that's going in, I think there's a different consideration there potentially because I think the distance then comes into it. Yeah. Yeah. But to me, because it's not on target, we have to hold, we hold those shots to a higher level of danger. And the fact that it's gone past him at the pace that it's done, with the proximity that it's done, and he knows that the ball's not at the goal because of where he's stood and because of where the shot's coming from.

I think yes. I

Keely: think he's, because he's not defending the goal. He's defending

Mike: the player, he's taking action to get out the way of the ball.

Keely: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I, I think that's a big point. And, and hopefully, you know, you, you, you heard the commentators discuss how, um, it doesn't have to be on goal to be a shot at goal, but we have, we have to apply a bit of a higher standard to shots.

That act actually aren't going in the target when it comes to danger. Because otherwise we're basically telling players that attackers can raise the ball. Remember, this is an intentionally raised hit that is not actually going at goal. So we have those two aspects to consider with this. And so for me, you, you tighten up the standard a bit because otherwise we're not protecting.

Defenders whatsoever. So for me, that's the first layer. And then you get to the next layer, which is whether this is legitimate evasive action. And in real time, I think the defender does the only thing he's got a chance to do, which is to lean a little bit to the side, but he doesn't have time for anything else.

You know? He really does not. So That's how I, that's how I felt about it in the, in the, in the situation. So it's interesting that there's a bunch of people, you know, Godders, uh, is saying that these are international games, respecting skill levels and reaction times, and this would be a hard sell below this level.

Well, I, I think it's, I think because. Just the decision in the moment is a goal. And what the video umpire has to look for is clear evidence. Yeah. Right? So that's why I understand. If Tyler in the moment had, the ball had gone in and Tyler had blown a free hit defense for danger and then had gone upstairs.

Mike: That's what Goddard, Goddard's next comment is making that point.

Keely: Aren't you clever? Aren't you just a smarty pants? If the freedom is dim and the attacker to view the outcome might have been a free defense. Yeah, exactly. And so much of that is that where, where Tyler's standing as the controlling umpire, as any controlling umpire would be, he's a little bit, you know, uh, he's like one step off from Like, he actually probably could have gotten hit by this.

Mike: I think he's got a great view. Yeah, he's got

Keely: a great view, but I bet the ball's heading right at him. Yeah. Like

Mike: It's, it's a to I, I agree with what God has here. Like, I think could be given either way. Yeah. Whether or not you deem it to be legitimate evasive action is down to your interpretation as an umpire, a player, whatever that is.

And whichever way the decision had gone on field, I don't think a review and I think a review in either direction could have ended up with it not being changed. In this case, it wasn't changed and the goal was given. Yeah.

Keely: Um, Matt saying, if the attacker had time to deflect, why can't the defender have time to pick?

Um, because first of all, the defender is closer to the ball. So he's got less time, plus the defender is in the, his body is in the, the travel of the ball, the attacker is coming in and all they have to do is reach and hope they're not in danger because he's coming that way. Do you see it that way? Am I making stuff up?

Mike: I can see that point. I think the, the slightly closer proximity, I think the. The fact that as an attacking team, you'd probably have an expectation that, uh,

that you practice this and so you know the kind of things are gonna happen like you're The onus on you as an attacker is also a lot less on a ball that is in the air You're trying to deflect it at goal as a defender. You're trying to stop the ball You're trying to keep it away from the goal because if you deflect it and it goes in the goal, it's a goal So there's there's more The defender has to do more.

They can't just stick their stick in the lane and hope the deflection goes in the roof which is what the attackers are attempting to do. They're either trying to stop the ball or they're trying to make sure that it goes wide of the goal. There's a lot more involved in the defending thought process than there is in this guy's going to smash it across it may be in the air, I'm just going to try and tip it.

Yeah, exactly. And that's not to take away from the skill, because it's a fantastic skill, but it's something you can practice and train, whereas as a defending team you're probably unlikely to practice stopping raised hits that aren't on target as a defending tactic.

Keely: Yeah. Well, maybe they are, we don't know.

Um, but, um, Matt, I have a bone to pick with you, sir. I'm right here, okay? Remember, this is my channel. Yeah,

Mike: but I'm new, so I'm always going to get some I'm so

Keely: hurt. Some first time I'm so hurt. I can't I'm a pouty little child. There you go. Stain saying, uh, The defender is five meters from the goal line, so not defending the goal.

Not necessarily. That's not a great Don't get absolute about it. Just look at what is happening in the situation. And And he's off target from where the ball was coming from and he is ball side and goal side marking a player. So he's not defending the goal. There you go. That, that makes it a lot easier.

So there you go. Very interested in this poll outcome. Niels is bringing it up with, um, oh, he's got commas. This is very confusing. I'm like 38, 000? No. So it's 38, 000. Rounded down percent say goal and 62 percent saying a free hit defense. Win. Heh heh. Yep. And if the defender had gotten an edge on it, uh, upwards into the attacker outcome.

I think that's, we're supposed to exercise the hypothetical. Okay. So the defender had done it. So that would have been, should be, in my view, called as dangerous from the. Uh, initial hit. Yeah. I don't, I wouldn't have considered the defender to be responsible for causing the danger in that situation. Yeah,

Mike: I don't think you, there's an element of control.

Right.

Keely: So if that's

Mike: the case But again, it comes back, it comes back down to distance and time and all of that. If you're considering this to be legitimate evasive action because he has no time to react, then yes, I agree. If, if he's 30 meters away. And the ball is at chest height and he's had plenty of time to see it and he attempts to play it and then plays it unsafely.

That's a different matter.

Keely: Absolutely. Yes. Don't. Yes, exactly. How dare you? Um, yeah, but I think this is a really interesting question, and I don't often like the hypotheticals to come up because it's like, okay, let's examine a whole different situation. But what we're doing there is if the defender either accidentally gets an edge on it because he's moving out of the way or he's partially trying to save himself, and because he is trying to save himself, his attempt at picking the ball goes wrong.

Then we wouldn't hold the defender responsible then. So just because he didn't accidentally pick it or mix, try to pick it and evade our, why are we now rewarding the attack for that situation? So there you go. Um, yeah, everybody loves Mike.

I don't, uh, yeah. Okay. Everybody. There you go. Uh, Godders, your point being that a short distance, even more, um, Um, and even more point that this was dangerous. I think that's agreeing. Is that agreeing? Okay. Hopefully. Okay. Oh my God. It's 1. 30. Do you see how this happens? Yeah. We're just talking away and it's really fun and it's all, you know, like we're having a great time and then it's late.

It's late. What do you think? Should we skip? I don't think we have to do Savita's mishandling of the ball outside the circle necessarily. Yeah. Do we want to talk about the, um, um. Yes, exactly. It's because you're all in love with Mike because he's English. Yeah. Um, yeah. Cause we can, we can either skip the skill session.

Okay. Quick vote, everybody skip the skill session and we'll talk briefly about New Zealand and then we'll get the hell out of here. Or do you want it the skill session basically? And we won't do the Civita cause there's no, there's no debate about it. Need to do with flowers and flowers. Oh my God. See.

He is hired, by the way. Okay, so first of all, Okay, you know

Mike: Just delete one of them and I'll duck.

Keely: No, that's gonna be so weird. So weird. Okay, let's do it. Okay, since everybody loves Mike, we'll put yours on top, and we'll put mine on the bottom. Okay? God, I'm so humiliated. So humiliating. Okay.

There. Okay, my head's bigger. That's weird. Okay, is everybody happy? Did we, is, you know, I mean, I'm not gonna look up at you like that though. Yeah, don't look down. Although, that is geographically correct.

Mike: Yeah, this is like real life now.

Keely: The scenes aren't misbehaving, Luke, it's that literally it's trying to have the forethought to Test things out, test out the audio, change all the scenes, and how the cameras work with the one camera works, and then using it in different aspects.

It's really complicated.

Mike: Basically, we sat in the wrong seats.

Keely: Yeah, we sat in the wrong seats. Yeah. Because I want, I thought I needed to be closer to here, but I didn't. And, yeah, there you go. See, look how popular you are. Oh, Sean wants the skill session. Okay. Ian just wants New Zealand.

Mike: There were

Keely: a couple of others.

Can't you just And, oh, Neil Skates wants to skip the skills. Skip! New Zealand, skip! Oh God, okay. Nobody wants to hear me talking about skills. I s I see you, friends. Okay. Let me quickly congratulate a few people. First of all, Chris Marcus. Thank you so much for joining Yellow. I'm very excited to have a chat with you.

I think we're going to talk Saturday in New Zealand? Question

Mike: mark? Is this another Kiwi?

Keely: No, he's, he's English, but he booked literally an hour after we land in Auckland and I'm like, we're going to be in customs for days. So this, this timing isn't going to work out. That's a problem with my calendar.

Anyway, Chris, I can't wait to get to know you and find out what your goals are and everything that is doing, and you'll be able to welcome into yellow. Yeah.

Mike: Welcome. Welcome to yellow.

Keely: There you go. Awesome stuff. Okay. I wanted to congratulate. Look, he was so mad. He was like, don't put, don't use the photo.

No, he just didn't want me to talk about his promotion. And I was like, I'm going to anyway. So I thought I'd use the best photo I have of him. Yeah.

Mike: It's my fault apparently. Cause I was at the other end. Yeah. Well, yeah.

Keely: Yeah. Yeah. You didn't do enough to save him. No, absolutely not. Very unfair. Anyway, um, A Panel, not too shabby, sir.

Congratulations. That's fantastic. I wanted to send a shout out to I'm just gonna Do you want to press confetti next time? Which one's confetti?

Mike: Confetti's the one that says confetti. It's really small writing. I know. And it's like skewed as well, so I can't really read it.

Keely: Sigh.

Mike: That's, that's, that's for you, Jammy. Laughter. Roomie. Roomie, roomie.

Keely: Yes, so Jamal and Ali and my good friend Joe were all at the Canadian Inner Classic this past weekend and did the umpiring thing. So, um, they look great, don't they? Look at Jamal's got his silver jacket on. So, very, very happy for him. That was, that was really cool.

And then, is there, is there one more? The plants. Yes. Yay! We just get to throw confetti everywhere. Boo and her father, Simon, did their first. Division 4 game together or something like that? Something like that, yeah. And Simon was extremely proud and did what every father on Facebook should do. Yeah. Which is put up a photo on Facebook and totally humiliate their child.

And Boo rocking the merch. Yes, and Boo looks amazing in her merch shirt. So if you are looking for a ladies cut A tapered cut of a match shirt. Well, we have them. If you're looking for the men's, no, long story. Don't ask, don't ask. We're not talking about it. It's not happening. Okay, let's go. So let's talk about the last thing.

What if I press the right buttons? The Vantage National Hockey Masters Tournament in New Zealand, in Wellington. Specifically. Yep. So,

Mike: what's going on? What are we doing? Well this is why I'm here. Not to talk about this, but um, this is my layover on the way to New Zealand to go umpire some hockey in New Zealand for a bit of an experience.

So I think we should probably start with, this is Keely's idea. She was asked, slash, volunteered, slash, spoke to all the Kiwis and said I want to come, I want to see New Zealand. I think you've been pining to go to New Zealand for a while.

Keely: I have been. I have been. But, honestly, I don't think I would have done so unless I had known that there was a tournament that I could go and be a part of, so.

But, yeah,

Mike: it's a week long, 110 Masters teams. Yes. 35's up to Seventies? Seventies? Seventy fives? Seventy fives.

Keely: Can't remember. Somebody will tell us. Somebody will tell us in the, in the comments. Um, exactly where it is. Oh, look, don't vote on the delay, injecting or fainting poll, cause that clearly wasn't part of that scene.

But anyway, Sean, thank you for coming. That was really great. And, um, score please. Score please of what? I don't know. Chris is a real up and coming South Central umpire. I think he's an up and coming MPUA umpire, but there you go. There you go. Needs a pull. No, too hard. Too hard for that. But there you go. Um, and Rachel really likes her match shirts, excellently.

Oh, so now we have some interesting facts to fill in. Good thing Shane's here telling us that it's the largest single sport tournament in New Zealand. That's pretty cool. Amazing. There's a lot. I was really impressed when I went to a website and I saw all the corporate backing and, and that this is a big sort of governmental health initiative.

Yeah. And it's, I mean, what What an honor it is. So obviously the Kiwi members of our community were a big, the big driving force to me sort of stepping up. And I sent a message to Colin French with Hockey New Zealand and said, Hey, should, should I come down? Do you want me to? And then I'm like, you're gonna come help and stuff?

And he's like, you're gonna come down to New Zealand? Really? And I'm like, yeah, why not? It'll be fun. It'll be easy. It's just 14 hours from Canada. It's fine. And then, um, to make this, uh, you know, I knew it would be a pretty limited group of people who could possibly join in. But Mike, you like stepped up right away.

You're like, I wanna come. Great. Mike McCartney, who's currently, he's somewhere. He's, he's in. Are you still in Australia right now, McCartney? I think you are. I think he is, yeah. Yeah, he's on holiday and doing other things, so he's gonna, he's gonna, uh, hopefully step on the pitch towards the end of the tournament.

And then Ben Burton, who's on his gap year from Scotland, is going to be down there and going to be on the pitch. Ryan Griffiths, who is a Green member, is going to be umpiring and And then two of my friends from, from Canada are, are going to be there, I think, I haven't talked to them, so I don't, I don't know if they're actually going, but apparently they're going, so we'll see, we'll see if they're down there.

So it's, it's going to be amazing. And of course. It can't be a tour unless I do a couple of Keely Hour Talks. So there's going to be one at Wellington, uh, hosted by the Wellington Hockey Association on February 28th. And it looks like breaking news. You heard it here first. Okay. It is super, super tentative.

So maybe I shouldn't say it, but I think March 7th, I'll be speaking for the North Harbor Hockey Association. Question mark? Oh, doesn't work on that one. I bet you it works here. Yes, they're all programmed differently. Long story. So that's going to be happening, but I'm, I'm just, I'm so excited that Mike's coming, obviously, because, uh, it's great to have friends and just knowing

Mike: that, it's great to have people to strong arm into doing a live stream with you.

Keely: Yes. And apparently doing it better than I do. We have just learned. And, um, yeah, being able to work with a whole different community of umpires and people. I'm, I'm just super looking forward to it. So there you go. Um, yes. And now. Well, there's, yes, there's definitely going to be a lot of hockey and unfortunately, Mike's going to be heading back right away, uh, back over that place, that direction, that direction all the way.

Um, but I'm going to spend two weeks more. So I get to see places like this, the Blackwater rafting and. Waitomo, so I will see, but I am currently going to go see Hobbiton and I'm going to see some mud bath geysers and, uh, Mayority Village and zip lining and there will be wine, there will be hiking, there will be all kinds of things.

So there you go. Oh, yeah, he felt the disturbance when you flew over. That's adorable. There you go. Um, Jolt, I'm going to try to do a live stream next week. Um. Yeah, it's Thursday. It would be Thursday. So it would be a what up Thursday if I did it. But no, next week there will not be any, okay I shouldn't say it that way because I might surprise everybody with doing something spontaneously from the pitch, but it'll be Around 8 a.

m. It'll be 8 a.

Mike: m. New Zealand time to do the same as this

Keely: time. Exactly. And so

Mike: I will be

Keely: I'll be watching umpires and things like that. So what, what I'm going to try to do is to broad content while I'm at the tournament and that sort of thing, but an actual, like one of these, no, that's not going to be happening. It is not going to be a live stream, but you, you can now, I don't know if you knew this, but you can now live stream vertically.

From YouTube it shows up in the short shelf. It's

Mike: really, I've heard vertical video is really good for hockey

Keely: clips. Yeah, really good. You can see everything. Okay, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it now. And yeah, I, I can't wait. I can't wait. I know that I'm gonna just go there and wish I couldn't, I'll never go home.

And one of the nicest parts is that I get to see a friend who I first met in 2003 at a young umpire seminar in Australia. And then I umpired with her at the Junior World Cup in 2005. Yeah, shut up. I was young once, okay? No, I Jolt's comment. Okay, there you go. Um, yeah, I know. Like most people try to stay out of arm's reach of me.

Mike's not so smart right now. Um, but yes, Tracy and I umpired together at Junior World Cup and we've been threatening to visit each other for 20 years. And I'm the one who fulfilled my promise. So Tracy's going to host me for a week on the North Island. I'm so excited to see her and that's, I think, the thing that hockey really brings, right?

Yeah, definitely. The relationships, like, look at us hanging out here, you know, and people that you know around the world. I think I have somewhere I could stay in pretty much every country in the world now if I went somewhere else. So that's kind of cool. That's really cool. Yeah. And Mike's going to get there too.

Because now he's gonna make friends in New Zealand. So, thank you very much Ian. We are, yes, gonna have a great trip. We get on the plane tonight, the big trip, and we're gonna enjoy staying, but staying, um, we're coming over to the Netherlands for Easter. So We will, we will update you on that later. Just obviously not now because I can't think of anything else.

It's too far in advance.

Mike: Absolutely. We've got three planes ahead of us tomorrow.

Keely: Yeah, exactly. So anyway, I hope you enjoyed today. Uh, apparently, wait, wait, I need to, I need to confetti this too, because congratulations on your first in person live stream. Thank you. You did great. So proud. So proud of, of my people.

And yes, uh, Rock, I would love to do something in South Africa. So please put your head together. Think, talk to people. See if there's something that you can think of. Cause I have not, I've stopped in Johannesburg and I've been to Zimbabwe. But I would love to spend some time, uh, some more time in, uh, South Africa.

So that would be amazing. So yeah, I'm getting all the, all the travel. We're getting all the places that we should go. Coral Mandel? I think so. Okay. Yeah, there will be stuff, and you know we're going to be on the server. So if you want to come in and find out, like, the backstage, the BTS, you want to come into the Discord server, so make sure that that's, um, that's on your agenda.

I'll just put that really quickly.

Yeah, it did work. Come say hi, and wish us well, and find out all the hijinks that we're engaging with,

Mike: so. We'll be posting updates, and clips, and

Keely: whatever. Absolutely. Um, yes. Thank you for letting me tag along to my own show,

people. They all know how to push my buttons, right? Don't they?

Mike: They're awesome. I mean, I'd have been doing the same if this was someone else, so.

Keely: Yeah, exactly. Yes. Talk to Yaku. That would be cool. Okay. Thank you very much, everybody. And we will see you very soon. Cheers. Night, guys. Oh, I'll press the button to end the stream.

I don't think it worked. What happened?

Okay, let me see if I can figure out how to do this properly. Hang on. Hold, please. Do you want to fill the awkward

Mike: silence? No, because this is just funny. Okay.

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