📅 May 4 18.00 GMT
We're picking up that goalkeeper tackle from a U14 NEDvENG match a few weeks ago, a 3D dribbling situation from the Bundesliga last weekend, and the FIH is looking for YOUR input on the penalty corner. Crack open a soda and let's get to work!
Submit your penalty corner feedback to the FIH: fhumpires.com/fihpc
⏱ Chapter Markers:
0:00 Chair Dancing
4:57 GK Slide Tackle U16 NEDvENG
38:45 3D Dribbling, Dangerous Play and Obstruction
1:04:14 FIH Penalty Corner Consultation – Survey and Discussion
Check out when the next #WhatUpWednesday will go live.
I'm a tiger on the prowl / Imma make you go wild / I'm original / and I told you so / I'm a kid in a candy store / I put the leather with the denim / I ain't the cure, I'm the venom / if you want to find me / find the tail lights / something's coming in / you're gonna want to take a red eye / it's time to go / it's time to go.
I don't wait for nobody / Imma sign my name on the dottie / city lights call my name / drawn to the flame / and I'm feeling kinda naughty / I hit the ground runnin' / step out the door and I'm stunnin' / better hold tight cause you know, what's going down on setting the pace cause this is my town.
Happy Wednesday, happy all days. How are we all. Keely Dunn, FHumpires. It's good to see you and good to see you all in the comments. It's nice to have you on board. We have, we have people spitting out German. We have people visiting us, who are on holiday in Italy. Matt W, good to see you. I'm glad that you were able to make it and to spend some time chewing up your remote data by watching YouTube. Well done. That's a great life decision. I'm pretty happy about that.
Uh, yes. I had a bit of a, um, hiccup in the old thing of majig yeah. Technical issues. I just wiped this scene, the scene you're looking at, I just had to recreate it while y'all were waiting. Sorry. That's what happens. Hey, we have another Kiwi on board.
Good to see you, everybody. Chair dancin' and drink shakin', that's me. Okay. Um, I will try to cover off all the hellos, uh, eventually, but I'm, you know, me, I'm, I'm glad you're here. And I just want to kind of get into the topics today. And this is what we are covering. We have the goalkeeper slide tackle, ish sliding kind of tackle from last week.
That was a big topic on some goalkeeper forums. We're going to look at that 3d dribble from the Bundesliga. And we're going to talk about the FIH penalty corner consultation. What? Are they asking us for our opinion? Okay. They're asking all of us, but the Royal us, I got a WhatsApp message. I'm just saying, and I'm sure it was very personal.
Nobody else got the WhatsApp message. Okay. Went to probably every FIH Academy educator, but we're going to go through it. And I spoke out in the huddle. I should have said something in the server as well, so that y'all could get your thinking caps on and we can have a discussion at the end of the show for a third topic, about some ideas that we have and that sort of thing, but I'm looking forward to that. Cause we don't usually dive into, if I could change the rule, what would I do? Sort of dialogue mostly because I don't like it. I it's hard enough for me to deal with what's in front of us then to think about what could be, but we are going to do that.
So, uh, let's get, let's get into the first topic. Shall we? Here it is. I tried to equalize volumes a little bit better. We're going to go through that goalkeeper tackle and fun fact, the father of the goal keeper DMed me. I hope it's okay I can say that. I don't mean to out him, but he, he, he DMed me on Facebook to ask me what I thought, which I thought was really, really sweet.
And he tuned in the last week and then I didn't get to it. So maybe he's around this week or he'll watch it on replay, but, um, good to see you, Dad. And this is what was, uh, making the rounds in, like I said, a goalkeeper forum on Facebook. And as I kind of noticed on a regular basis, we didn't see a lot of discussion of principals.
What are we actually looking for in this? So that's what I want us to focus on. Uh, as we're looking at this replay. You'll notice a few things. Okay. First of all, you have a player who is catching up to, the attacker's catching up to the ball. The ball is not in their possession. Okay. It's, it's what I would call a very true 50:50 situation.
Um, let's just make sure, okay. I'm not, I'm not getting any messages that my audio is bad, so I just wanted to make sure that was happening. You also see the goalkeeper's helmet coming off and that's something I just want to cover off because we have had discussions in the recent past about goalkeeper helmets and what we should and should not be doing in those situations.
Just starting the background music. I, this is my first tea of the day. I'm all flustered.
So have a look. And for those of you, especially who were in the FHU #thirdteam, , let me know, what are we looking for in this situation? What's the first thing that we should do as we see this impending tackle coming. Where should our focus be? I'm feeding you the answers, guys, feeding you the answers. And how can we best situate ourselves to make an accurate decision in this situation.
Good to have you, Amanda. So while I'm waiting for your comments to come in, cause I'm not moving until you guys all tell me stuff, you know, Mike's got as popcorn, Tomas is here, Mike Mac is here waiting in the car. Okay. It's all too late for the Sage advice. Now. Luckily you're well-prepared. You are fine. Looking for the coin to toss.
Ben wants his coin toss contest. Got to get on El, I put it in El's court. So let's do that. Commonwealth Games tickets, well purchased, friend. Well purchased. You never know. I might see you y'all there. Gayatri. Great to have you. It's very late. Gayatri's in India. Okay, I'm going to shout her out later,
Luke and Sarah. Oh, I'm so glad you're here. There you are. Stefan is here from, I believe the Netherlands. Hey, so John, you're looking for the contact is a ball, stick, or player. Okay. That's helpful. Stijn: danger, is the goalkeeper moving when contact is made. Okay. Those are two things we can look for, but both of those things, Stijn, I would ask you if you think that in a 50:50 situation like this, or even in any goalkeeper tackle, do we expect a defender to come to a standstill when they make contact with the ball? Okay. What I would suggest to you, and to everybody else thinking along these lines and thinking about the movement of the goalkeeper, you're absolutely right.
Do shift your focus to the defender. And we like to stare at the attacker, but we should be focusing on what the defender is doing. Where are they moving? How are they moving? What is happening with their stick, all that sort of thing, whether they're a fully-kitted goalkeeper. So what I see here is a goalkeeper who is moving in line with the progressing ball.
They are not moving in an angle that misses the attackers. They are moving off into space. Okay. Tell me if I'm I'm on drugs. I'm okay. I was wrong last night about our score and the game that I was playing. I thought we tied the game at the end and we in fact won it on a last minute penalty corner. I'm okay with that kind of error.
I wouldn't be too happy if I was wrong on this, but I see the goalkeeper moving straight ahead and actually moves his body out of where the attacker would be flowing at that time. Remember that a goalkeeper is a player who we expect to go to ground inside their circle. They are entitled to do so.
They are entitled to use their body. They're entitled to play the ball with their body down on the ground. So we expect this kind of movement, but it can't be a movement that moves into the path of a player who is moving away, who is getting around. Ah, there we go. He's here. Hi Lee, I shouted you out without using your name.
I wasn't sure. I try to get people's permission to talk about them. There we go. Crispy is looking for whether the goalkeepers in control of their movement or acting recklessly.
Tomas, look at the direction of the ball off the contact and is the keeper sliding into the player for you, it's a fantastic tackle. And then the attacker moves into a non-dangerous goalkeeper, free hit defense for the helmet loss. Thank you, Tomas, that's very well-reasoned and set out. I appreciate the thoroughness. Very good.
Steffan, Kia Ora. Um, Michael McCartney, this challenge is always likely to require support from a disengaged umpire given how the goalkeeper blocks the ball. Is it a clean take or not? Okay.
Yes. Having the support of your disengaged umpire is going to be important. There's not a lot of positions. We don't know where the umpire is, but just looking at, if I go back to the initial, let me mute that. Sorry. I hope that wasn't as loud for you as it was for me. Just looking at where the, where the, the umpire is coming into the scene here.
Um, they are coming a bit, it looks like they're a bit late, but I'm not sure if anything, other than being on the other side of the play would have been helpful in this situation. Okay. So I'm expecting, this is going to be troublesome. Yes. The disengaged umpire would be helpful, but they probably are going to be quite far away in order to see what kind of contact is made.
Okay. Right. Rachel, what would we expect the player, the goalkeeper to do. Was anything reckless, no. Who caused any danger? The goalkeeper slides. That's fine. For Gideon, focus on the goalkeeper stick, showing that they took the ball first.
Okay, because I, I do, I do sort of slow it down in the replay. Re like you can tell how much I've slowed this down because it, the feed stutters, because the frame rate can't even keep up to the slow mode that I'm trying to do. But if you look here, first of all, let's see where my point is. Okay. Is that you can see that there's actually a really good lane and contact with the ball.
And there's not much else I think that a goalkeeper can do in this situation to be able to reach the ball. Go down as they're entitled to block the goal with their body and here, because I think the goalkeeper's come very clearly straight at the ball. They're not coming in and then wiping out the attacker from this sort of angle.
I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing here.
Too many, too many buttons to push to push. Okay. And then when I look right here,
okay. I, I actually asked to Lee what, uh, what his son experienced from his angle. Cause that's, it's just sort of a good way to ask the question, but if we're looking here. Oh, excellent. Right on the, on the spot. There's two things that I was watching for in this. Okay. Was that I was watching the goalkeepers arm coming around in slow-mo.
Okay. And I was looking to see if, if that was a reason why the attacker was immobilized , wasn't able to move because that arm came around. You could see his blocker is on the other side of his foot and a stick is there. I don't think that that was a compelling factor or a big reason as to why anything would have happened there.
And it's here in the it's it's the, the player's right foot here that collides with the helmet. Very similar to what we saw with, uh, that India, England does a play that we talked about a little while ago. It's, it's a very similar situation of the helmet being lifted from the chin and being taken off that way.
And, and what Lee and I talked about, he said that the, that I'm, I'm not a goalkeeper. I don't know anything about these things and that it actually, the, the helmets aren't very good at partying. Goalkeepers from, from the helmet being moved that way, because they're built for impact coming this, coming at them in that way.
So I thought that was very interesting. And these are things that we, I think is umpires should be talking about, and should be investigating with players because this is what we call understanding the game, understanding the equipment, understanding what goalkeepers are going through, what we expect players to try to do in this situation.
But your… Nirmal, chiming in, is the goalkeeper in full control of their actions. Yeah, but I think the problem with talking about being reckless or in control is that we've been talking a lot on all these streams and in the huddles and that sort of thing about how we define an intentional foul. And
I've iterated pretty consistently that an intentional foul is one that is made by a player who is in control of their actions. The intent is in the action, not in the result.
So yeah, we would look at, you know, sort of a goalkeeper who's, who's just, you know, flying is saying, well, you're being, you're in control of your recklessness. Okay. I just don't want us to get confused as to when somebody is behaving recklessly. It's re it's it's. The intent is in the action and it's reckless as to the result of the play.
Like I am fully gonna come out hundred per 120 percent at this person. And if I miss well too bad, that's better than letting them go around me. That's the kind of thing we're looking for for an intentional foul. Okay. So I just want to find tune that thinking, because I think it's more helpful for us in getting to a correct decision here.
For Chris. They think the goalkeeper played pretty safely. It's clear. It's 50 50 Mike Mack, uh, Michael McCartney. I can't get the two confused here. Um, and then only the only question is the goalkeeper taking a clean, uh, swipe at the ball. If yes, a free hit defense, if no, possible PC, if not, penalty stroke, if the attacker has genuine possession or the possibility or the potential to have possession. And I argue it's a good potential.
Mr. Parker. Spiderman in disguise. Keeper makes a safe tackle for you. The attacker knocks, the keeper has a helmet off. The only thing you're not sure of, does the keeper lift the ball as they tackle into the attacker? Uh, I don't think so. That's not something that I sort of noticed. It looks to me like the ball is just on the ground and then it changes direction again, Thomas, because the goalkeeper's, uh, the top of his, uh, leg guard moves the ball off to the right.
For Mr. Farmer, the attacker's moved the ball to the left, but the player's carried straight on both are responsible for safety. Absolutely. The attacker's in control of their body as well. And they have to be aware that they don't get just to dangle the ball out and then run straight at a player. And we see this all the time in the outfield.
Don't we, where a defender has good possession, a good position. They have their space. They're not moving into the space the attacker has already beat them to. They are in their space and then the attacker fails to move around them. And that's, that's the that's sort of the logic that's most compelling for me.
And for Shayne, the attacker kicks the helmet off.
Thought it was a good movement by the goalkeeper moving body away from attacker.
Yes. Takes the ball cleanly. Then the trailing of the attacker takes goalkeeper off or the helmet off. Thank you, Ali.
And yes, Jennie, 50 50 ball, no tackle, probably got down to ensure contact with the ball and to cover the goal. Like they're entitled to do that, um, play on, but helmet off then what. So Jennie, with the discussions that we've had lately about goalkeeper helmets, if there is interference by a player with an, uh, an opposition's equipment and it's especially equipment required for their safety, then this should be a free hit for, um, for the defender because the goalkeeper can't play on here, but it's not fair because it's an action of the opposition.
No PC for lost helmet, John Williams, GK played the ball before helmet was dislodged. Absolutely. Yep. That's that's good just to, um. And plenty of direction for the attacker to go to. Supporting umpire's behind the halfway line. Yeah. And, and you wouldn't expect that, right? Like this is, and this is why I stress this. It's in mission critical positioning.
This is the controlling umpire's primary responsibility. They really need to be, as on top of this, it's just difficult one. And I, you know, that I'm a big proponent of that happy place, but there's also that notion of flashing up or moving up towards the top of the circle so that you look, and you can look around the goalkeeper's body.
And maybe that's where the umpire was. We can't really tell, but it looks as though the umpire is quite wide because of the direction they're walking to, when they start communicating with the players, we see that the umpire on the screen. And this again, is something that wide positioning makes it very difficult because the further are you are away, little adjustments in your depth inside the circle won't have as much impact on the angle, right? The closer you get to steps, radically changes, what you can see when you're far away, two steps, it doesn't change a whole lot.
James, the helmet came off as a result of the attacker. Yeah, free hit defense as long as you think the tackle was clean first. Yeah, I think there's a lot of consensus. And this is the interesting part.
And maybe it's just because y'all are awesome. I don't know. Because so many of you are here consistently and you're taking part in the Discord server. Um, you know, that we have a Discord server? Right there, come over, say hi to everybody and have a chat. And we sometimes talk about the clips that I'm going to talk about on a Wednesday.
It's where it gets. Some of my best ideas is from you all.
We can have exchanges and sort of warm up the topic and I can get some better ideas as to better ways to approach the conversation and, um, yeah. We all seem to be on the same page. So I'm not sure where there was so much dispute.
And again, this is not a criticism of the umpire in the case. I think it was, it's a difficult call to make because of how the goalkeeper's body moved. It would have been very easy to be unsighted. The supporting umpire's very far away. It's going to be a struggle. Okay. So I have a lot of empathy in this situation. It's a tough one, but remember that we need to be certain when we make big calls. And in this case, I was, I was concerned about the goalkeeper's arm coming around and, and that, but I don't think that that was determinative of how the attacker's leg then, uh, uh, knee and foot took off the goalkeepers helmet.
So I was happy with that tackle. I was happy with how that all panned out. And for me, I think this is, this is a play on. So when you break it down, you're looking at where the goalkeepers coming from. Whether they are caught out because of the attacker moves away from them. And then they are, the attacker's moving into a different space that the goalkeeper is late to getting into.
Do they have the space first or not? And in this case, they have the space first. They're going to be in motion because they're running for 50, 50 ball. You can't expect the goalkeeper to stop dead because they're trying to get to that 50:50 ball. And, and there certainly was no indication that, that there was a long continuing motion after that.
Okay. And then trying to see the, whether there was any stick contact on the tackle. The, the movement of the ball is not determinative, but it's a compelling factor. It's one of the things that you look at in a potential stick obstruction. If the ball goes the way of the tackling player and goes that way, ahead. If I'm a defender.
By the way I didn't make any of these tackles last night, I missed every single one of them. If the ball goes my way after I've made a tackle, I have probably made good contact with the ball. If the ball continues or goes off to the side, the way the attacker was going, I probably hit their stick instead.
Oh, Stefan's having audio issues. Is that it is anybody else experiencing that? Let me know. I suspect the goalkeeper didn't see much of the player. It was almost certainly looking at the ball at this locked back. The gut feel of the first view hasn't changed for Rachel, the goalkeeper lies outside of the line, plays the ball cleanly the attacker, who should expect this. Yeah. And, and so I think the trip comes after the contact is made from the ball. And, and it's just like a defender who's got their stick on the ground. And they make contact with the ball and the attacker steps on the stick that is probably going to be okay. And that's the attacker's fault if they fall down.
Body position's also key for Crispy, um, when you were a hundred percent going for the ball as a keeper and you were going, man, ball, attacker behind defender and everything else between you and the corner flag,
I'm going to have to look at that one. When my mind is clear.
As a striker, you're getting up and congratulating the goalkeeper on the play, waving away the penalty and checking they're okay because he kicked him in the head.
Other than taking the player before the ball. What other behaviors for goalkeepers might you award a penalty stroke here? Um, that's a big one. When you see the goalkeeper getting to this space second.
Okay. So, so the ball was already moved away. The attacker's moving away from the goalkeeper and the goalkeeper nabs them afterwards. That's sorry. I'm like getting everything out of focus because my hands up front of my auto focus, but that is going to be a big, a big indicator. So it's the timing, timing into the space.
What was given here? A stroke.
And Hey, let's look at the stroke just for funsies, because then everybody wanted to talk about the stroke. Bonus footage.
And sorry the audio is very mistimed. I don't know if that was my audio or my video editor or whatever,
and this is my slow-mo edit. This is my pause.
Okay. So you can see it was a stroke and it was saved. Well done. It was a clean tackle for Jules, the only thing is the helmet. Yep. So an attacker foul for Jules. From Sarah, the angle we're looking at, it looks like a good tackle by the goalkeeper on field umpire must've been unsighted. Yeah, unsighted. And, and that's, that's the struggle, right?
Is that something big has happened, and when we are the controlling umpire, we know the decision rests with us and perhaps we reach. And we go looking for a foul, we look for reasons to blow our whistle. Let's do the opposite. Let's look for reasons not to blow our whistle. You, you need to be able to defend why you've given a particular decision based on what you saw in that moment.
And if you didn't see it you can't give it. And we, you know, when we were going through our really terrible stories last week, that was a lot of what I heard from the umpires saying, you know, I'm pretty sure from everybody's reaction that X happened, but I didn't see X. So I had to call Y and that's absolutely, absolutely true.
Sound is breaking up with you.
Hmm. Okay. Let me, um,
you see what's going on. If I could adjust
let me just change my mind. Sound effects gaming. Okay. Let's see if that's better. Let me know if that is fixed it. YouTube might just be being a jerk. Beauty tackle says Dave Peel, and this is how keepers are trained. Use your body to make going forward or to the keepers left unattractive and force them to the stick side.
Good to know. And it sounds tinny.
I am displeased. Let me know if that changed anything. No, the, the sound is off Dave it's that's because the, the video is it that's me so sorry that don't pin anything on that. Yep. She's looking through the back of the goalkeeper and she would be in most situations. So like that would have been a really tough one.
So I'm not being critical about that Roger whatsoever. Um, no. And it wasn't. Yeah. Sorry. It really, that is, um, by the time the video gets sent from one place to another, in different iterations of the files are made sometimes syncing gets off. Um .A chair, 10 meters above the goal. Yes. Wouldn't that be great.
I can't remember who was suggesting that. I think it was a top coach was saying that we should have a, uh, an umpire perched high above, because it seems like you can see quite a bit differently from that side.
well, I, I, I don't think we, yeah, I mean, sure. If Lee wants to answer, but, uh.
Luke, you were focusing on contact with the ball and it moves solidly in the direction of the keeper tackle. Yep. Suggesting to you that the solid contact was with the ball and not the stick.
There are going to be collisions between goalkeepers and attackers. You're looking for some extracurricular activity. Okay. And I think what you want to focus on Chris is not just like an extracurricular, but mistiming of that. Okay. The stroke was good. Not entirely convinced the penalty stroke taker's within playing distance. Stephen, Stephen. I don't want to hear that.
That is fine. He doesn't have to be within stick distance. Because it used to be the rule that it was stick distance now to playing distance. So playing distance must be different from a stick length away, therefore.
Okay. The sound is fine for you. Interesting sound is okay on the coach. Sound is fine after adjustment. Okay. I just changed it back. So let me leave it on the sure. Mic. Okay. Thank you. Sounds fixed. Okay. That is so weird. It's a loop back. Letting me down. What is happening?
Sure. Stream deck options. A hundred percent
friends. I don't know what's happening. But I guess you don't get any great sound effects. I'm not going to be able to push my air horn button or anything. So mad. Nik would be so happy. I don't think he's here though.
Oh, no, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. God, you guys
Don't look for reasons to blow your whistle.
The umpire adjudged it was contact with the player first ball second. Okay. Thanks Lee. That that's appreciated. And that would have been difficult to see absolutely. That this camera angle is perfect for that scenario and very tough for an umpire to get that right. So the complaint on the goalkeeper forum about this stroke was that it was hit and what you have to judge here is.
Is there an extended back swing into the ball. I have slowed this down and paused it and made it look as bad as I possibly could make it. And he still within 50 centimeters of the ball after his approach. So the fact that he moves towards the ball with a few steps is going to move the stick towards the ball.
That is the thing, but does the stick move away from the ball more than 50 centimeters and then back into it? No, it's fine. Okay. If the FIH wants to tighten this up, they will force players to start within playing distance, force them to only be able to take one step into the stroke, and then we won't have any of this.
Okay. I really liked this little touch Lee. You got to tell your son that I'm really appreciative as a very sly player, myself, that little shoulder nudge on the Dutch attacker who has taken the stroke. Very clever. As an umpire, I wouldn't let that nonsense happen. But as a player, I think it's fun.
Um, would it have been a justified to give a card if it was player first, is asking Luke, or was a penalty stroke punishment enough? It depends. So Luke, I'd be looking at where we are in the game. How many physical fouls have occurred? What previous warnings have happened? Have we had penalty corner upgrades for tackles like that
outside the circle? Has the goalkeeper been penalized for penalty stroke, you know, before? Does an extra message need to be sent? I don't know. I'm going to guess, no, but we don't know in this, in this scenario. Nope. It's not on the Discord and it's, it's on Facebook. I don't know if you really want to go in there.
The problem with social media friends. I say this week after week, wait,
come on, Rant of the Week isn't working, wait, I'm going to do it manually. I'm not letting this go
there. Rant of the Week.
I don't mean to be a jerk, but there's a lot of people on social media who pop into forums and express very uneducated opinions. And it's not that I don't want people to participate in discussions. I think that's important. And we touched on this last week as well, is that there's a way to engage in these discussions
that involves knowledgeable moderation, asking the right questions and guiding the discussion in a productive manner. That doesn't happen on these Facebook groups by and large. Okay. And if there's present company in here that doesn't like the way I'm saying that, I'm sorry, but I do mean it. Okay. Things have to be, these discussions have to happen in a constructive way, or you just have people arguing on the internet.
What is that wavy stick thing going on before the stroke? I don't know. Just getting psyched in. Yep. That too, James, if the FIH didn't think that this was, if they thought these were hits, they'd start saying you have to have the stick on the ball and that way you can only push. Okay, fine. Go ahead and give her the link, Steve.
Facebook hockey groups are interesting place to be. That's one way to put it, Tom Marco. Hi. Good to see you. You can have fun. It's up to you. They don't like sensible answers in those groups and that's why I don't like them. Cause I'm sensible.
Okay. How are we doing for jeez, you guys did we have to talk that long about that?
Here we go. Topic two. This is the 3d dribble that again caused much consternation for many, many, many people. This is German Bundesliga. So we're talking prem. Yeah.
(Dutch commentating). This is the right place to learn rules, Shady. You're in good company. (Dutch commentary). Okay.
There are many names who can be named. Oh, I'm sorry. Did I totally mess? Oh, you're right. Well, it says Hockey.nl in the corner. Thank you, Stefan. That was really bad. Thank you. Now I have to go back and change all the social media posts. I went under 14 with the clip before. Oh, I don't know why I thought it was Bundesliga, my bad.
Thank you. Yup.
Let's get your thoughts again, start with principles. Okay. What is the foul, if there is any? Yeah. HDM and KZ
What are we looking for? What foul, if any, is occurring and why? What are we expecting players to be able to do in this situation?
And I think I did a pretty good job of pulling out the moment of the foul that actually was called,
as it happens right there.
Okay. Scott. You're always getting in there early. You must be a fast typist. You're like me. It's all about who causes the danger with 3d skills for Scott. Who cares if they're running into space, they shouldn't take it into other players though. Fantastic. Gideon, your principle who was causing danger. No one until the attacker brings the ball into the defender, right at the end.
You're going to put your neck on the line here. Okay Stephen, let's go. You want to give a free hit defense putting their body between the defender and the ball in the corner? Nah, I wouldn't call that obstruction, John. I understand the temptation, but it would be the same if the, if the player turned and, and went that way. And remember, you know, I'm in the slow Mo it all looks a lot more deliberate and things like that.
I know. Right. Thanks. Okay. Stop rubbing it in. I'm okay with making mistake.
Um, let's see. Ginette, 23 red good skills. 23 black, not so much. Lou, you're looking for danger. If attack creates it, can't see anything from this camera angle. Totally fair. And I appreciate that you picked out that sometimes we don't have a camera angle that gives us the information we need.
I'm ready, Stephen. The ball carrying you feel is a good skill and we shouldn't punish skill. The danger is only caused when a player tries to tackle and most players don't know how to tackle. Hmm. I'd play a sound effect right now, but I can't.
You're glad that Thomas, your years of egg and spoon races is now being utilized in hockey at the highest levels.
Absolutely. Is this, this is Hurley, right? Do we have any Irish people on the stream right now? Who can confirm for me this, this feels a little hurley-ish. When I visited Ireland back in
2006, 2008, did a tournament there did the under 21 European championship and then went on a tour. I was entranced by Hurley. I hurling, I thought it was amazing. And I bought a stick and a ball. I bought two sticks and a ball, and I brought them home to Canada. And until they got caught in the rain and then they disintegrated and fell apart, I'd go out in the field and I'd play it. Cause it was cool.
Definite stick tackle by the defender. That's what causes the danger. Yep. The foul was there. Is that a stick block? The stick comes off the ball and prevents a legitimate tackle. No danger at this level, fantastic skill. Yeah. Definitely not dangerous, but I don't think it's a stick block because.
He's about to dribble. And then the defender just comes underneath his stick and hits it. It's no, you wouldn't call that a stick block on the field either.
You don't know how to yeah. They don't know how to tackle them. 3D, you're absolutely right. Jennie: you like it. 3d was fine until he slowed and turned with the raised stick into the defender.
Yeah. There's a lot of focus on what the attacker is doing here, but I really don't see… What's the defender doing? Okay. Stop looking at the attacker again. What does this particular defender who ends up getting tagged for the foul? What's he doing? He comes running in behind and it's not like he's stationary.
This is a two defender on one attacker situation. And actually 23 is still moving away or 23 blah, black, red, whatever. He's still moving away and the defender runs straight at him. So I saw that comment on the socials quite a bit, and it's just not the correct reading of the situation.
Okay. The defender is just continuing. He's just going. I don't know what Hurly burly is, but I bet it's funny. Tell me in the server. Um, it, I don't know if it takes exceptional skill. It's exceptional now because it's not being trained.
So I have on several occasions now, I actually didn't even pull out the clips because I've shown them several times where defenders are capable of making a clean tackle on a 3d dribble. You know. Why they can do that? Because putting the ball up in the air like that, isn't like a free license for an attacker to be able to do anything they want. You know. What's really hard when you're 3d dribbling, ask me as somebody who's like, I'm going to play around with this because experiments are important.
You know, what's really hard? Is moving side to side. When you have the ball in the air like that. That player was able to carry the ball on their stick for that entire distance, because they were running in a straight direction and yes, they can go like this and they can kind of shape the ball as they're moving from side to side.
But that gets really freaking hard. The reason he was able to run so far with that ball is that nobody was in front of him.
So there was absolutely no distinction as to whether the ball was in the air or on the ground. And then once he's there, defenders have to change how they come in with their sticks. And when I've seen clean 3d tackles happen, which they are starting to happen at the top levels because it's happening often enough in games, the defenders are starting to train the tackles is that they don't tackle by swiping across the ball.
That is a …. That is like if the ball was, especially, if the ball was in the air and being tapped as that attacker started to do, when he was coming into pressure, do you want to try to swipe horizontally onto a ball that is bouncing vertically.
Write in the comments. I dare you to tell me that that's a good technique. No, you want to put your stick vertically as if you're trying to trap a bouncing ball on a grass turf. Old-school tackling skill. I dropped my glasses. So, sorry, I'll go back to the replay so you can watch it. I just like to change it up and really get the rants going straight at ya.
Yeah. Yup. It's the nuances that make all the difference. 23 black goes straight into the attacker's stick nowhere near the ball. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it's a little break down-y. It is a little, it's possible. Depends on a lot of things. I don't know. This attackers, it's a one on three from what we can see in the focal thing there, who knows.
Dawn, you're seeing the attack run and realize his path to the goals will be blocked. So he pulls back, but the defender changes path comes, stick, raised danger. Yeah. I don't think it's a dangerous just obstruction. He just, there's nothing dangerous. Uh, at this level of skill, but as the, as the dribbling starts happening, as opposed to the static, carry on the stick of the stationary, carry on the stick.
I don't know what the best way to describe that is, that's, when that's, it that's the right time to start dribbling it. And then they, I mean, it's just, it's not even close to the ball. Like it's not even towards the tip of the stick. I don't even, I don't know what that guy was thinking.
Yeah, no evasive action, Marco. That's a good point to raise you don't see evasive action. You don't see 23 going whoa, 23 on the stripey team. I can't tell what colors they're wearing. It's really dark.
Um, let's see the tackling, exactly. Getting the tackling skill has not kept up with the three-dimensional skills. But someone on Discord disagreed. It's very hard for a defender to make a clean tackle sometimes. It was a brilliantly timed. Yes. See, we're seeing it. I would have I thought about clipping it, but I can't.
Cause I have to wait 24 hours before I can put the PA the, the clips up. Soloing as it's now referred to. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. I knew if I called your name, anybody Irish, you'd speak up. I appreciate it.
Yeah. Why did they come from underneath? But if they just tried to swing swing horizontally and send the ball into someone who caused the danger, then um. The defender did, if the defender swings horizontally and smacks the ball like that.
Yeah. You'd stand… yes, Scott. I would stand my ground and let the attacker bring it to me, making it dangerous, you would've gotten a free hit. Yes. I have shown these clips over and over again. So anybody, if you are watching this and you want to investigate this further, if you do a search, you can go to fhumpires.com and you can do a search there for, um, just type in 3d and you'll get both sides.
Oh, sorry. If you're a clip library member, if you're an fhu3t team member, which means friends that you want to do this thing. Wait, why is, I don't know why nothing is working in my life.
I, I just don't know what's happening. Yeah, it's gone. Okay. My, my cool. Nope, that's Discord.
Maybe it's in the scene. Let's try this.
I can't even show you. Okay. You guys know what the link is? fhu3t.com and there'd be a flashy. Whew. And it would show you the green, yellow, and red layers of membership. The clip library, you can look at all of the different 3d clips that are there. And you can get a sense of what the players could be doing and what they should be doing and why they get called for fouls. And when defenders successfully defend, if they get a call for that danger, it's because they are in the lane already. They are first to the space, just like with the previous scenario, the first of the space and the 3d dribbler comes out then with the ball. So if that ball were on the ground, that wouldn't be dangerous for them. But when it's coming at you, that way, that is dangerous.
I'm really glad you're here, Dawn. Don't you worry. Whack-a-mole there you go. Um, let's see. The fouling defender tries to tackle from the side where the ball is not been visible for the whole skill. Yeah. And I think the lighting was really bad like that. That was, I mean, I know the cameras make it look worse, but boy, it was almost as dark as the turf I was playing on last night.
Even at full speed. Your first call was to review what happened to the breakdown and make the decision based on that. Yeah, not even close. Absolutely. Jennie, um, the attacker should have dropped the ball by dropping the stick. Real-time not sure if I would have seen the foul by defender, looks like the defender tried to intercept.
Right. And you know what, when I think about it. Positioning -wise, that would have been a tough call to see. You would have had to be quite sharp and close to happy place in order to see that deep in the corner because of the way that the players turned, it would have been difficult. So well done on the umpire for seeing that one, for sure.
Yeah. Close to a slash. I don't know what you know about ice hockey rule, sir, but you're probably right. Okay. See you, Jennie. Thank you very much. That is the link for my, my page that I need to redo. Yup. Well, we got some Afrikan coming out, I like it.
And hitting it out of the air, what to do with those. Okay. So Stefan, what you're you're asking is what do you do with players? With defenders who are …, are hitting the ball out of the air. We had a long discussion on a previous What Up Wednesday, probably about two months ago about hitting the ball out of the air defensively. When the ball is, is, sorry, I should use correct words here. That, um, you know, defenders in a circle might see a ball that is high, and then they would hit it straight out of the air and loft it down
the, the pitch what to do in those situations. I don't want to get thoroughly into that discussion cause we did, we did work through it, not to entirely to anybody's satisfaction. Definitely not mine, because I'm really not sure in some of those cases, basically we just stick, stick with danger for most of it and then go from there.
Uh, Kristofa from Australia. It's 4:30 AM. Oh my God. You have an unrelated query. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to star this and I'll finish and I'll star the second one. Oops. And I'll just make sure we wrap up this first. Oh my God. Three, four, whoa, dude. You're definitely writing a lot, so five. Whoa.
I hope everybody's happy with that situation. Okay. Watch what the defender does in the tackle. Watch what the defender is doing with their stick. And when you see that, that the defender's stick is nowhere near the ball, it makes that decision very easy. It also makes it very easy to determine whether there is any danger to the defender because when you focus on them, you can see that they are the ones taking themselves straight at that situation.
So no foul by the attack, foul by the defender. Great call by the umpire and yeah.
You mean the attacker takes it to the circle and hits it and now you're finished. Okay. Good to know. Okay. Yeah.
Actually this would be a really good time for me to do that, but I do want to make a couple of announcements if, um, Gayatri is still awake. Is this all going to work? I don't know if it's going to work, but I do want to welcome Gayatri from India.
No, nothing's going to work because this is the scene that's broken. Let's see if I do that. Is that going to work? Nope,
it's okay. You know, I've had worse. I've had worse. Mix-ups on shows. I was going to say the wrong word. Gayatri warm. Welcome. And wait, I'm going to manually turn on confetti.
What's going on?
You know what, everything got messed up. Okay. Just pretend that says Gayatri. Gayatri, welcome to yellow and I am so pleased that you're able to join. And if you want to know more about that, again, go into FHU three t.com go into the Discord server and ask some questions because this is where we do our mentoring work.
And it's dope. I'm going to say a couple. Thank you's as well. Let's see how this goes. It's probably going to be a thank you from like three weeks ago. My scenes got overwritten. I'm just saying, thank you. Thank you. Okay, let's try this. Maybe this will work. Nope. I don't think this is going to be right.
They're not there. I'm going to say a big thank you to Abby, Abby Mac. First of all, from Wales FIH umpire and to Dave Peel, who's on the show today. Thank you very much. Both of you for sending me a rosé down here, buy me a coffee.com. Don't buy me a coffee, but I hate coffee. Buy me and rosé.
Um, and actually after last week's show, I do want to extend a thank you to a whole bunch of people who messaged me directly and were checking up on me because they were worried.
And I just wanted to say how much I appreciated the fact that, that you all could see that it was, it was tough. It was a tough show. It was, um, some of the things I talked about, I'm very. Sensitive and still trouble me. And I'm still working through a lot of those things and, and I get very, um, I just get very upset when I see my colleagues going through troubles.
We worked so hard in our community to try to encourage umpires, to, to stay and to get involved and to be involved and to grow our ranks. And we're trying to get more women and we're trying to get young people and then garbage like that's happens. And it's really difficult to be able to encourage, still say no, no, no, no, no.
Don't worry about that stuff still come in. Right. So anyway, there you go. Gayatri, she's so excited. She's still awake! Atta girl. Okay. Let's see. Oh, what was awarded? Um, a foul by the defender. So a free hit for the attack was given no intentional, no PC, no personals. Okay. And let's see. Good to see you. And Ahmed's here as well.
Ahmed joined the Discord. I'm so happy to see my friends there. Very good skill from the attacker.
Okay, let's go back to, and I am I saying it correctly? If I say Kristofa or oops, Kristofa Kristofa, Kris? Tofs? what else can I call you? Maybe Shandra is your first name. Who knows? This is troublesome.
Let's go through your scenario. Okay. Um, a situation where a player slid and took out an opposing player in the circle. Okay. You gave the stroke. So I'm assuming now that the player who slid was a defender and you were in the process of calling time, the process of calling time to issue a yellow card.
When four of the attackers rushed you, blocking your view of the offending player. There was a bunch of people near the same area at the time of the foul. You saw the take down, but not the jersey number. Yep. You went and asked your other umpire who it was, but didn't see the jersey number either. You were lucky enough to have the defendant, the offender own up, but what should you do when you don't have a luxury?
Okay. So first off, really great question. We've covered this a few times on other streams. So anytime you see a stream or a clip that has to do with captains, you're probably going to have some information there. So, um, don't be shy about searching for those and finding some other good conversations.
Cause there's lots of nuances and lots of advice that hopefully I won't miss too much out on, but yes, the captain is very important. First of all, because you've been swarmed and that is not acceptable. The captain is responsible for making sure you don't have 3 attackers, or 4 attackers coming, running at you.
Okay. So we're talking about the captain of the team that didn't commit the foul. That captain needs to be dealt with. And that very well, may be a green card against the attacking team's captain. Okay. Because that's nonsense. And that's exactly why we don't allow swarming is because it gets in your way of being able to manage the situation properly,
see the players, make sure you don't miss any retaliation. Okay. So that captain needs to be dealt with as well. But yes, asking the captain is a few of the others have, uh, volunteered in the comments. You're absolutely right. Um, Michael McCartney said that, yup. Ask the captain to confirm that is always helpful.
Ahmed agrees, using the captain. There you go. And. Yup. That's you prefer Kris? Okay, Kris it is. Small point. When you blow a penalty stroke, you don't need to indicate the stop time. Yes, that's out. That's absolutely true. So your stoke signal is already stopped time. And sometimes it can just because it's not too, too often that you call strokes.
So then it's even more infrequent. It's even less frequent that you award a stroke on top of that card. Sometimes you're trying to draw extra attention. So I don't super nail a umpires who do the extra stop time. If I put my arms over my head, you're not going to see it, but if they stopped time, because they're trying to make sure everybody sees that this card is coming. The best way to handle that situation is to take it slowly.
You have stopped times. So there's no rush. Okay. Dealing with all those attackers is the first thing. Okay. And one method you can use, if you do have players running up to you right away is to get your hands out in front of you. See how that focus works. Go Sony. Okay. Get your hands out in front of you.
Whoa. Get away now. Captain, clear this out right away. Okay. Try to take control of that situation as soon as possible.
And then by then you, you, you don't even need to do the extras in order to find the player who had committed the foul. Okay. Good stuff. That's a great question. And it does happen. It does happen quite a bit in these emotional situations. Swarming is bad. Okay. Last topic.
The FIH wants our opinions. It's like the internet was invented.
I can hear some weird stuff in that music that was, that threw me right off. I was like, wait, I do, do I have something running in the background that I shouldn't?
So an email was sent to all the national associations and WhatsApp messages have been going out and they are going to be hitting this up on social media, I was told this week, that everybody is going to be asked everybody.
So if you have opinions on this subject, let's talk about it. So what they are asking for is, oh, let's see if I can see this properly. This consultation, we'll go through the recognizing safety concerns that do exist and trying to address whether the penalty corner rule needs to be changed. Or the penalty corner as a set piece, needs to be changed, and how.
So they set out the project objective: to consult with the global hockey family at all levels, gender, geography, on the future of penalty corner is. They want to maintain the spectacle of hockey's primary set piece. They want to consider the danger and safety of the penalty corner format. And they will not be doing anything about this until after Paris.
Okay. So that, that you got to know. Is that there? Okay. That's there. So these are the project objectives, not until after 2024, which is good.
So they talk about the reasons that we're looking at this, the power and strength of the athletes and advances in technology have led to a faster high shots, increasing danger.
It's been combatted with allowing to defenders to wear additional protective equipment, which gives the image of hockey being a dangerous game, detracting parents from wanting, wanting their children to start playing. In addition, large amounts of protective equipment after the corner have to get discarded. It's untidy, they get thrown in the air, they get left lying around the circle. They're, you know, so they're very concerned about the appearance of the sport and how it looks.
Um, as, an, I think this is a very good point. Um, they're making it right around here that the protective equipment gives players an unnatural sense of safety. Meaning some put themselves in more dangerous positions at a domestic level where the protective equipment is not always the highest quality and therefore more likely to get injured.
It's not even the quality. Um, but as we know, from ice hockey, football, American football I mean, type sports that the behavior of players changes when their protective equipment changes. They will behave more. They will behave with less consideration of their own safety because they think they've got this great helmet or these amazing, amazing shoulder pads or whatever the case might be, but they still have a brain in the knocks around in their head, no matter what you put around it. It's not really there.
Less goals are being scored for by penalty corners. That's absolutely true. We have noticed, I have definitely noticed without taking stats because I'm busy trying to watch umpires that the conversion rate on penalty corners has plummeted in the last four years, for sure. And when you watch as many Pro League matches as I do you, you really get that sense. And they acknowledged right in the bottom that they're considering making the change to the penalty corner rules before a serious or fatal incident occurs and not wait until, not wait to react.
And that's an interesting point to make and something that I want you to all consider is that everybody says, well, it's just a matter of time. It's just a matter of time. And yeah, that sorta makes sense. But at the same time, we have had many serious injuries. We have had a few fatalities. And if Kris is still here, Kris probably remembers this one, uh, very much.
And there was a young man in England recently. I can't remember exactly which club it was from, but just, freak accidents that tragically took lives of young people who were playing the sport that had nothing to do with penalty corners. Had nothing to do with even shots on goal. So it's, it's one of those interesting situations that we, we are assuming, and it's a fine line being proactive.
And then just saying. Is it truly dangerous? So I still, I'm still on the fence a little bit, because I think the penalty corner rules are actually fairly well structured to keep players safe, given all the variables because of the timing and the distances and, and all these sorts of things.
However, I think it's kind of boring. I think penalty corner is a boring, I've always felt that way as an umpire. My, oh my God, not another penalty corner. I don't want to see another corner. And the conversion rate has dropped so much and drag flicks like, yeah, they're fine. But it's a skill that you only see in the penalty corner. So I'm, I'm not super interested in it. I'm more interested in skills that you see elsewhere on the pitch and they get performed in a goal scoring action. I think that's cooler.
So there's an online form. You can see that there's a link that will be posted. You can also go to. What did I say it was, somebody test this out and if I'm wrong,
I put it in the, in the chat there. J that's just a URL redirect. And it also will help me to know how many people hear me talking about it and then go to see the, to fill out the form. And of course, because my scenes were breaking, I didn't do this thing where I shared…
there it is right there. That's what, that's what it looks like. It's just a nice little word document form that you can go have a look at it. Okay. So go ahead and get your stint in here, but I thought it would be interesting to talk a little bit. The link works. Thanks. I remembered what I said. Um, but I do want to talk about an idea that was brought to me by my friend, Chris Marriott, who is a, he is an English coach in Wales.
Hope I don't get that wrong. At least I didn't say he's in the Bundesliga. And we've been in some he's, he's been my instructor in an FIH academy coaching course. And he's mentoring me a little bit in coaching stuff because I'm trying to get better and get smarter and all that kind of thing. And he presented to me this idea, which I thought was fascinating.
At first, like I do with everything, I just dismissed it out of hand. I'm like, no, that's dumb. And then I started thinking about it. I was like, wait a minute. I actually don't hate this. So you can see it's a five on three situation. The injector still injects from the same point. And the four other attackers are starting outside the 23. They cannot move until the ball is played.
And then the other defenders are inside the goal and cannot move until the ball is played. Now, some of the factors that would come into this, what I love about this idea is that it doesn't change anything about markings. It retains the same basic structure of a penalty corner in terms of it being a set piece that starts with an injection. That's still there.
But what I think this kind of play does is open up the possibility for a more free play type of goal situation because of the numerical, that, that the high numerical advantage. And I mean that because it's, instead of it being seven players and five or eight players and five it's a five on three, and that is more remarkable. Like it's, it's, you've got more space to work with.
So the questions for me here are the things that I said to Chris. I said, okay, I like this, but where do the rest of the players start from? Do they start from the centre line or do they start from the opposing 23? If they start the centre line, are they going to get back into the play too soon?
Because this shouldn't be just, a ball gets collected at the top and straight shot. This should be a quick, basically isolating a two on one somewhere sorta scenario. The ball should probably go up and then go deep in the bang into the goal when it's successful. But is that still enough time for the numerical advantage to properly play out?
Would you have to put players at the 23 instead? Does that make it harder to umpire? I don't know. At grassroots, is that a too long of a sprint to go for me? I'd be like, yeah, I'm just going to stay up here. Y'all can go run back. So I'd have concerns about that and what I would like to see here, I don't know about the timing of runners and whether a player could start at the 23 leave when the ball moves, and would they potentially receive that ball inside the circle? It's so I'd like the ball still to leave the circle before it can be a shot on goal.
I'm looking for changes that would make it easier for umpires. Fewer rules, fewer rules to have to call more things in the players' hands. Great. But I think we still need that rule if we had a scenario like this, Okay. So let's see what y'all have, because I'd love to see your ideas.
Um, asking the internet about changes the PC. Yep. Corner McCorner Face. If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you. Oh, goodness. Very funny. Well, there's that too, right? It's not taken from the corner. You always get some bruises. Yeah. When attack. Yeah. It just, just because you have lots of equipment on, sorry. Back to Stefan. Now that I've realized what you're responding to.
Yeah. Despite the equipment you're still getting hurt and your brain still gets hurt. The traumatic brain injury issues. We've seen so much. There's been a lot of publicity in the last few years because of high-level athletes, especially within the England GB set up needing to take extensive time off or their careers being cut short because of traumatic brain injuries.
And that's just what we know now. What are we going to learn in the future?
Tell us more. I think this is going to be your idea. When attacking PC only eight attackers on that attacking house. So no 10 people on the D uh, end of time.
Yep. This, and I'm just thinking that if we were to look at this, we'd have to look at how we'd have to change end of time rules. Maybe the ball can't leave the 23 and can't leave the five and then can't leave the five meter after it's re-entered. Something like that. Thank you for, thank you for that. I'm going to just, um, I'm just taking a quick screenshot of this so that I don't forget things that need to be covered off.
Thomas. All for shots to be below. Oh, I love it. I love it. Sorry, Thomas. We're still going to be friends after I rant, right. Okay. I just want this agreement. You and I, we're still gonna be friends. All shots to be below 460 millimeters, uh, maximum seven attackers three. If the ball hasn't left, the D and a shot has taken free hit defense. Three is unnecessary. Um, two is, is somewhat interesting, but I hate number one. Let me tell you why.
Because if you're old, you remember a time when shots were much more restricted on penalty corners and you know what goalkeepers did? They logged. And it was boring A F okay. The only reason that attackers can score and low corners at the rate that they're doing now, which is to be fair, probably 50% of all drag flicks are now being flicked into low corners, rather into high corners.
But the only reason that's open is because the high corners are still a possibility. Unintended consequences, friends. I hate that rule.
Stephen remembers just hitting balls before training and a stick hit him in the head. Oh, it was a stick. I thought the ball hit him in that either way. So sad. So tragic.
They start at the opposing 23, it's going to be awful for fat people and the old guys in the bottom tier teams. Yeah. And I'd, I'd be concerned about that for sure.
I'm also concerned about managing that as an umpire because you need your supporting umpire to be able to help with the ball or players not leaving too soon, a little bit, maybe? So I'm concerned with them also having to track the supporting umpire, watching the players that are behind, leaving too early.
Cause I do that all the time as a player. Look, I need the headstart. Okay. And it's not like I'm running into the circle and people are like, wow, Keely's really fast. They're like, oh, she finally made it. And I still cheated. So.
Oh, James, your first thought before that example was a shootout style things start on the 23, but something like a three on three instead of a one-on-one.
Yup. So this is, this is kind of similar. This is kind of similar. I don't mind that.
Michael. Nice idea. But where does the ball have to be trapped outside the 23, or anywhere outside of the D. I think outside the D could allow an attacker to collect at pace, but then collide with the defender coming out at peace.
Yup. That's true. But yeah, I mean, I'd like to see, I'd like to see it in practice. And so what I said to Chris was, okay, when are you going to run all your experiments with your squad? And of course at this time of year, they're probably not doing a lot of that, but I would love to see how this all could play out because it's all about timing.
How fast does the ball move compared to how, how quickly is the ball, is the ball moving, compared to how quickly the players are moving? How does it distribute and allow the defenders to get away? So, one, one question I lobbed at Chris was what if the defenders just plugged the goal and stay. Like, how, as a coach, would you want your defenders to defend this kind of play this format of set piece? And he said, actually, that's a great question. I don't know, at this point. And I think one of those, one of those tactics would not include sitting back. I think the worst thing you can do is sit back. You want to sort of try to force some errors on the two on ones, because what you're essentially getting is a, is two, two on one scenarios getting set up the injector is still involved too.
So you might have one 2 on 1, one, one, 3 on 1. Yes, but the goalkeeper's there too. So let's say it's two, two on one units.
Ahmed. We can try to play the PC from the dots circle in the same conditions and no more drag. This idea depends on how much space, uh, if it leads to less dangerous plays and found more creative skills.
I think the only way that you stop the shot, the first shot, which is primarily dangerous because the defenders haven't moved into safer positions. They haven't been drawn away from the goal by needing to actually play defense. So what I think this scenario does is it encourages defenders to get out and to try to make a tackle and try to dispossess the ball, try to intercept a pass rather than stop a shot, which they're not equipped to do.
So what we're doing is we're encouraging the result we want without forbidding it because people have always said, well, if it's going to be, if defenders are going to commit fouls by staying in the goal, then make it illegal for them to stay in the goal. Well, how do you, how do you do that? Actually, you just want to make it a smarter play, a more sound way of defending, a successful higher percentage way of defending by having them getting drawn out and away. And with more time with the ball moving that way, then defenders have the chance to get out of the way of those shots.
Not a return of the own goal rules, Scott. Yeah, that was, yeah. That sucked. Um, no, we can call it a penalty corner, Mike. Wow. Wow. Wow. What if it's mistrapped and goes 10 meters past the 23 meter line on this event at the end of quarter?
Yeah. We would have to, we would have to look at, I think if it goes past the 23 meter line, because you have so much time as attackers to go and receive that ball inside, if it goes outside the 23, that's the… right. That's what you're saying.
You have 200 characters and I have to interpret those 200 characters on the fly and sometimes I get it wrong. That is a good idea. I like that. Yeah. The goalkeeper just logs.
As a rotund goalie, you can say quite, quite confidently that your belly…,
I don't want to know. I don't want to know what your waist circumference is, Stephen.
You'd have to combine it with some kind of three new three point contact rule. Yeah. Nope. Another complicated rule for an umpire to decide at that point. Nuh-uh.
The 5v3 is quite possible that a drag, I don't know. I don't think it does. I think it encourages you to pass away from it from the first shot from the top. Um, the injector is likely always to be unmarked. Yes. And that's why you won't get drag flicks, Because you've got that injector. You've got the ball flowing into the circle faster or more frequently instead of it hanging around the top of the circle and then being projected like that.
I think you see bang to the top attacker, the top passes back to the injector who passes back slant across the goal of mouth, bang into the goal. So you still have the possibility, I think for this for some nice set plays some, some ways that you coach, but it looks more like the rest of the game. It still has the skills of the rest of the game passing, receiving, defending.
Why not just replace a PC with a shootout attempt. Attacker V keeper with an eight second limit as per the current shootout competition rules. Um, so that's what they do in hockey fives.
And I think the only reason that seems like a good idea is if the ratio or the conversion rate is high enough that it properly penalizes players for committing fouls inside the circle. Accidental fouls inside the circle. So is it disadvantageous enough to the defending team?
If it is, then I can see that.
I used to be very anti challenge as they call it in hockey fives, but just watching how bad the penalty corners are now in terms of conversion rates and how boring they are. I don't mind that. What they do in hockey fives as well is they continue because there's no end lines, it's not a stop play situation.
So the challenge goes, and then the rest of the players can run in from the centre line, which is 22 meters away from the end. So you could have it flow, but then you'd have to figure out what you do without a bounce balls and that sort of thing. And actually, yeah, that removes the eight seconds. So it turns into a free play situation because all the other players, I can run in.
For the 5 on 3 new PC idea of Chris Marriott, players start at the halfway, but only had to track back when the ball enters the circle.
Yeah. It's possible again, more complications for the umpire, for the supporting umpire. And then how do you deal with that? How do you deal with, you know, I have some pretty strong feelings about not interrupting a PC as a supporting umpire, unless you've been asked and unless there's a result that you need to overturn.
So it's a big disadvantage if a defender breaks early. Yeah. You don't want to just have one.
More clear instructions on what to do with defense players. Leaving the halfway line too early. Yes. That would have, that would be a big concern, right? Cause you would have both attackers and defenders. You would have. Um, so if we have eight here, then we've got, uh, 2214. Well, we've got a goalkeeper. So 13 players that we have to watch at the centre or the 23 meter line. That's a lot, that's a lot in order to, to watch that effectively, the controlling, the supporting umpire's positioning would have to change and shift back. Their focus is away from being able to help. What's really important, which is going on over there. So that is the problem with this.
What are your thoughts on how to defend this as a goalkeeper, Stephen? Uh, basically force them to play the ball outside the circle and play it in for the goalkeeper to mop. Yeah, I like it.
Nirmal, you would probably sending a goalkeeper out as number one, as an indoor and the defender covers a slips. You might do that. Yeah, because you, you have a bit more time. It's just a further distance. It works better than indoor because you've only got nine meters to the top of the circle and in outdoor you've got 15. So you start getting bigger angles and bigger openings. And that's why you don't see goalkeepers running penalty corners as they exist now because it's just not effective.
You're welcome, Marco. I'm glad you're here. And to you.
I want to eliminate the drag flick. Nope, no, but, but out ruling, ruling out a skill, making it illegal means that just like what the forehand edge hit. It's more ambiguity. We just want to discourage this from being…
'cause it's not that drag flicks themselves are inherently dangerous. It's that in the context of a player being able to collect the ball outside the circle, take three steps inside the circle and then release the ball from like 10 meters away from the goalkeeper, as defenders are still scrambling to get into positions:
that's why it's dangerous. So what we're just trying to prevent is that shot happening at that time, in that proximity, under those circumstances, with that much space, like less space than would be available in this scenario.
There you go. Stephen just said what I said.
Thomas. You'd like the idea of the attacker starting at the 23 metre line or the five metre dotted line cause it thinks, you think it will encourage the defenders to defend. Yep. Yeah. It, it would, you'd have to see how players, how it works. Stephen. You don't want the 5 v 3.
I don't know. I don't know. And then maybe, maybe it's a, it's a 5v4. Okay. But what I like is how much space this creates, or maybe it's a four V3. You still have a lot of space because the space is what's gonna prevent defenders from putting themselves in dangerous positions, trying to stop shots rather than trying to play defense.
Uh, you like the five, four, uh, then you have a five V five V three outfield and beat the keeper. So the shot would 99% of the time come from beating one player and then there's still other players to pass to. It's possible. I would like to see it.
It's a great small sided exercise. Yup. It's interesting Gideon because, um, one of the conversations we have a lot in, uh, the FIH academy coaching courses is how training with overload situations is actually not an effective way to build attacking skill.
Because when you look at how much time teams spend attacking as an underload, that it's actually a three V four it's. It's a two on three it's, you know, they are actually being outnumbered and you actually need to train that situation much more frequently and try to help your players learn how to get results when they don't have the benefit of numbers.
Because at that level of play, at the, at the top level of play, defensive structure is so much stronger. And this is actually what I find, um, even in lower levels is that the most successful teams are the ones who have the best defensive structures, because they're not giving up those situations. And then players just don't have the, the, the game intelligence and the creativity to work with an even numbered or an underloaded situation. And to be able to get a result.
I'm glad you came by Stijn, thank you so much. The success ratio depends a lot on ability level, but that's the same as the current penalty corner. So I think, you know, I think the, the experiments will show us what, what it takes, what the magic numbers will be. But as long as we're getting to something that's like 50% conversion, we're already higher than what is about like 25 to 30% right now at the top FH level.
If you can get to 50%, I think that's a fair conversion rate for what the effect of a defensive foul inside the circle would be. We're not looking for 95% as Steven's pointing out. We're not looking to definitely not looking for 99. We're not looking for as high as a penalty stroke conversion rate.
We're looking for something that's more around, I think at 50%. And that's why maybe the sh the shootout scenario is pretty good, because that is fairly 50 to 60%.
Chris for intentional fouls inside the 23 and outside the circle, you'd like to see an open shootout, like the challenge. Yeah. Um, yeah, I, I don't know if we necessarily have to change all that yet, but it's an idea to think about. There you go.
Uh, when the PC experiment, when the ball goes past the 23 and you score two took place, how did that pan out tactic wise?
Um, yeah, that was when the ball was going outside the five and it didn't really change anything. It just confused people. It just made the score lines look weird and teams just didn't. They'd sometimes change their penalty corner tactic so that they could earn those two points and get ahead. But. The relative lack of success that the teams were achieving when they allowed the ball to go outside the five meter dotted line, because it was now a free play goal, meant that when the free play goals were with two, um, meant that it wasn't a risk that a lot of the teams were taking. It just made the score lines look dumb. So we didn't like that. We, the hockey collective.
Much harder for players to aside says Michael McCartney, when the ball is entered, the D from the halfway line, risks of early breaks will be high. Yeah. And that's, that's a really good point. Maybe you can't. Yeah. From the other 23 where you will you ever know, will you ever know?
Maybe you can, oh, oh, here we go. Maybe you can start running when the umpire blows the whistle to start the penalty corner, which incents the injector to inject as soon as possible after that whistle goes, because now the onrushing rushing defenders from the 23 can start. Ooh. What do you think guys? I like that one.
Sorry. We're a little over time by 10 minutes. Uh, so Stephen, the numerical advantage- based penalty will be far less successful, lower levels where misconduct, some miss passes are common. Yeah. But everything's less successful. So what do you do? Give them penalty strokes and then they don't score those either?
Like, I, I don't know. I think it gives you more incentive to, to work on those areas of your game as well, because you know, those are the prime opportunities. So being able to pass and receive, you know, you're rewarded for those skills, instead of the 14 year olds practicing they're drag flicks for three hours and breaking their bodies. That's what drives me crazy. Learn how to receive a ball.
If players at halfway can't track back until the ball re enters the circle, you're playing two, three on two keepings off the outside. Yup. Or five on to even how to prevent call, deliver danger PC again, with the defense all. I mean, I think Casper, what we've seen at the levels is that it's a really tough call to make.
So we haven't, we haven't seen, I haven't seen any calls for suicide runs for years, other than it just sort of changes what we call is danger, but it's because it's so hard, it's so hard to call. So that isn't the avenue. I don't think. Do we want to increase the conversion rate of. Uh, to goals or keep it at similar level.
I think what the FH stated in their objective, their, um, Rachel, is that they are looking for a better conversion rate. Sorry, let me get this out of the way.
Is that the, that the PC is just not working as the spectacle they want. They do. They generally just want more goals. The FAA just always wants more goals, which is really rude. If you're a defender, we'll keep her like, what about us?
Nirmala you're saying you, you run under load sessions. Whoops. I think I wiped out your comment for attackers rather than oval it's. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's, it's what a lot of people are talking about as being a more productive coaching thing. I'm glad you're here, Amanda. Thank you for that. Chris, your ideal version would be a five on five other players behind the center until the completion ball starts.
So penalty spot and is run outside the circle before shot can be taken. It's interesting. I still think you'd need a numerical advantage though, because without that, I think you, you, you don't create a high enough conversion rate. 'cause I think if you took five on five free play situations and you just like, if you tag the game and you isolate all those variables, I think you're, you're down to, you know, 10%, 5% in terms of conversion rates for how much time, a five on five plays happening and how many times that turns into a goal.
They want more goals as a baby step, just making a player start outside. The dotted line would be. Just make the self, the set place trap to set up a dry flick harder to execute. Yeah. That's not, that's not a bad idea, James. I don't hate that at all. Uh, Lou plus the opposing 23, um, is far back, early breaks are almost a who cares.
Yeah. Right. So, but going on the whistle, I thought that was clever. I'm not clever very often. So I look at, can we have a goalkeeper crease, like ice hockey, all players outside stops defenders on the line. Um, we w I mean, we could, but here's what you have to change. There are pitches all over the world that don't even have five meter dotted lines around the circles.
So now what you're asking is an infrastructure change for pitches all over the world. Very expensive. So there's going to be a lot of people that resist that idea, Tomas. I absolutely guarantee it. And you've got more rules for an umpire to enforce. Again, we want to make this easier, not harder. We want, we want players to feel more confident that they are making the plays, not umpires are making the decisions.
Yeah. They currently aren't much successful than higher levels because you tend to have poor goalkeepers and alternatives to drag flux. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm saying Stephen, that I think the conversion rates will be similar because the lack of skill mobility, speed execution, game smarts. It's the same thing for defenders and attackers that are up here and lower levels.
It's not like all of a sudden goes like that at lower levels, or it goes like that. It's not everyone reacting to the whistle would make things easier for umpires to manage and eliminate sand sportsman like action of fainting. Yeah. It is interesting. Yeah, and, and we have time. So they're going to take ideas in for the next few months, I think.
And then they'll, if they have to run trials and experiments, they'll run trials experience over the next two years, maybe because what they're want to do is if they decide to make a change, they're going to want to make it in the 2025 rule book that comes out in September of 2024 after Paris. I'm assuming that they're going to get back on track, with the pandemic ruined everything.
And we had a January 1st, 2022 rule drop, but usually they drop the new rule book after the Olympic games, prior to when it gets implemented on January 1st of the next calendar year. That's what we're looking at. Glad you're here, Sarah. Thanks for stopping in. Um, and Stefan, you don't like the indoor penalty corner either.
And not just changed along. The indoor game deserves to get a little bit more independent attention. Yeah. And, and that's, that's a good point. It's something that we can look out for. Um, you know, whether it's same relative distances and stuff, we've, we've already had some changes recently with, um, any attackers who either break early or have elected not to defend behind the line, have to now start even with the nine meter line on the opposing side of the court, which, cause apparently it was just way too easy for players to get back if they were running from the centre line.
So you'd have to make some changes there. Um, yeah. Hi. Yes. Hit the like button. If you haven't hit the like button friends, is my button going to work? Oh, it did work. I, that one thing work today, yay me. Yes. Yeah. It's just a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. And I know the ice hockey refs do it, but.
How about a one and two goal version?
Nope. I don't like it. They did it, they did it, they did it for EHL and they did it in Australia as well. They tried a whole bunch of crazy stuff in Australia and it wasn't pretty.
Yeah, well, why hasn't it happened Stefan? It hasn't happened because it actually is more expensive and more difficult than you think for pitches for, uh, facilities that have existing infrastructure. No, no, no, no. With big rule changes. Um, do they have places in leagues to trial things before they come and mandatory experiment in the FIH rules?
Well, that's interesting because what has generally happened is that jurisdictions will seek approval from the FIH to experiment with a particular rule. So Australia, whenever they've done their weird extra point after a goal conversion shootout thing, or they've trialed seven on seven section plays, and they've done all kinds of crazy stuff, they go to the FH and say, can we do this in this particular competition?
And this is the reason why, and we'll use it as a rule trial so we can learn more things. The importance is you needed in a competitive environment. So you're balancing out the competitive environment with, and you, and you need the players to be skilled enough to be, be smart enough to take advantage of the new things, to push the envelope, to look at the different possibilities, look at the unintended consequences and tease those out.
But are you going to see the Hoofdklasse doing it? Are you going to see Bundesliga doing it?
So you, you, you have to do some sort of training trials first and then get to a point where you could implement it in a competition. EHL was all about it though. EHL's a great place for that. And they've, they started the self-pass. They, they trialed it there first, before it reached the main rules. They did the two points for free play goal and a one point for penalty corner goal.
So if it's going to happen anywhere, it's going to happen in the AHL. And that's why we all love it. It's chaos took you two years to get a defective line on a local authority pitch repaired. It's not easy and it's not cheap, so we want to make it as easy as possible. Okay. This was fun. Good show. I'm sorry. I went over time.
Very interesting. Yes, it was a laboratorium. Laboratorium. Did I say that right? I don't know. Kasper. And it still is. It still is. So we just haven't had something to experiment with, but maybe we will soon. Thank you all for joining in. It was fun. Uh, sorry for my, you know, lack of sound effects. I know you're all heartbroken.
I think I'm the only one who likes to be able to press the buttons and do all that stuff. Um, please head into the Discord, my graphic isn't there for fhu3t, but it's still exists. Come into the Discord server. Please join in the conversation we've been growing really nicely over the last month.
Lots of people popping in. If you are one of the new South Central or New South Wales officials, make sure you get in there because that's where we do all the good stuff. And I will schedule some watch parties soon. I just I've been trying to sort out what the watch.hockey app is doing. I'm in conversations with them as to why they've stopped allowing me to be able to see the games effectively.
Anyway, thank you so much, gang for the cheers, Allie. I'm glad you're back. We're getting more women watching the show. Yes. My YouTube stats are going to go from 95%, male to 90. I'm so excited. We'll see you in the Discord and we'll see you next week. Good night and good day to all of you. Bye.
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